Getting used to a heavier bow

[anonymous12251111]

So my teacher lent me a very nice bow for the summer, but it weighs 146g and is quite stiff. I'm used to bows mainly at 133-135, though I have a Snakewood Walke bow at 142. Is there any way to approach playing on a heavy bow without injury? I've been using less arm/hand motion and have been concentrating on relaxing but I can't play for long periods of time with this bow without my hand becoming tense. When learning how to play with a heavier bow do any of you do "strength" training exercises for your hands? Thanks...I'm just worried that I might injure myself using a heavier bow even though the bow has more volume and tone.

[JoeyNaeger]

I have found that doing extended technical exercises that take over 30 minutes of continuous playing have been very helpful to me for loosening up. When you don't allow yourself to stop, it forces your body to relax, other wise you simply cannot get through the entire exercise. My favorite example of this is all the bowings in the very beginning of Rabbath 3. I haven't mastered all 200 and something of them, but it takes me about an hour to get through the ones I do know without stopping.

[David Potts]

It's hard to believe that 12 grams difference in weight would have such an impact on your bow hold unless you are already holding your own bow stiffly and this is tipping the balance, so to speak. The index finger does two jobs, providing the leverage downwards onto the string and holding the point of the bow up to draw sounds at 90 degrees for best tone. Perhaps what you are also feeling is the difference in balance. Is this bow more head-heavy than than your own?

Some other factors. Is this French or German style? Are you sitting or standing? What part of your hand gets tired? Is it your big thumb muscles?

DP

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by David Potts

It's hard to believe that 12 grams difference in weight would have such an impact on your bow hold unless you are already holding your own bow stiffly and this is tipping the balance, so to speak. The index finger does two jobs, providing the leverage downwards onto the string and holding the point of the bow up to draw sounds at 90 degrees for best tone. Perhaps what you are also feeling is the difference in balance. Is this bow more head-heavy than than your own?

Some other factors. Is this French or German style? Are you sitting or standing? What part of your hand gets tired? Is it your big thumb muscles?

DP

K, 12 grams is a lot of weight. I don't play with any tension at all. Something about the qualities of this bow make it hard to use for longperiods of time. It's made out of Snakewood (which I've used before), but it's very tip heavy.

[Hemispheres85]

My teacher once told me that he was sucked into a fad many years ago that the lighter the bow, the less you had to work. He went on to say that the opposite is true.

I'm no expert, but I'd say just keep loose and let the bow do most of the work.

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by Hemispheres85

My teacher once told me that he was sucked into a fad many years ago that the lighter the bow, the less you had to work. He went on to say that the opposite is true.

I'm no expert, but I'd say just keep loose and let the bow do most of the work.

Well ideally your weight comes from your arm, regardless of the weight of the bow. You can create a bigger sound with a lighter versus heavier bow because it may be more comfortable in your hand. It's really how the persons arm works.

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

K, 12 grams is a lot of weight. I don't play with any tension at all. Something about the qualities of this bow make it hard to use for longperiods of time. It's made out of Snakewood (which I've used before), but it's very tip heavy.

Greetings!

It's quite possible that it's not the weight that's giving you trouble but rather the tip-heaviness. Balance is often a more important factor than the weight of the bow. A poorly balanced bow can feel heavier than it really is.

Obviously, since it's your teachers, you can't just go out and get the balance adjusted. Does your teacher think it's tip-heavy? Balance can be adjusted fairly easily if your teacher wants that done to his/her bow.

Best regards!

Jim

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by JimGullen

Greetings!

It's quite possible that it's not the weight that's giving you trouble but rather the tip-heaviness. Balance is often a more important factor than the weight of the bow. A poorly balanced bow can feel heavier than it really is.

Obviously, since it's your teachers, you can't just go out and get the balance adjusted. Does your teacher think it's tip-heavy? Balance can be adjusted fairly easily if your teacher wants that done to his/her bow.

Best regards!

Jim

thx, just out of curiosity. how would this be done? obviously i'm not going to take his bow and do it heh.

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

thx, just out of curiosity. how would this be done? obviously i'm not going to take his bow and do it heh.

Greetings!

As Ken mentioned, above, it might be possible to get a heavier screw. The thickness/material of the winding can be changed as well.

If those don't work, there is also the possiblity of lead tape under the grip. Since this bow is already heavy, this might not be advisable...but it's a reversable adjustment.

Best regards!
Jim

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

When I started back playing about 11 years ago I ended up with 4 bows in a short time. Two of them were in the 140+ class. They felt heavy so I sent them to Biase in NY to look at. He said they hurt his hand as well after playing a short while. On one he put a heavier screw to balance it as it only had a commercial frog. The maker, Peter Eibert made the sticks only on both of these. The other, he wound thicker silver wire on the grip and that was the fix for that one. That Bow is the heavier and stiffer of the two and the one that I kept. It is 146 grams as-is and 152 grams with a rubber grip added.

I use the 152 Eibert at home for practice now and take it out with whatever Bass it's attached to on my Jazz gigs which is minimum bowing.

My main Orchestra Bow is a Lipkins now at about 140ish with grip added, maybe 138 without. My other Lipkins bows were in the same range as well. Some other bows I have are slightly lighter but I can't dig in as well with a lighter Bow unless that particular Bass allows me to. String set-up matters as well. The tension on the strings allows me to play accordingly.

If the bow is balanced I see no problems in my hand or wrist as long as I don't over play with the equipment at hand. I must also note that I am more of a 'wrist' player bow-wise than I am an 'arm' player. Maybe that has something to do with it as well.

Also Calvin, I have been Bowing basses for more than double the years you have lived since you were born. I doubt that I am as good as you are from what I hear (from you) but I do have 40+ years of experience playing which accounts for something at least, comfort or how to get it!

Thanks for the good advice, I do appreciate it (really I do)...so thank you very kindly. I was unaware that I judged your skill, if I did it must have been a misinterpretation or poor phrasing on my part. Either way, my sincerest apologies.

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

No, not at all or at least not recently that I can recall. I just wanted to make my self very clear that I was talking from long time experience and not from some other place..lol

Awesome. So have you guys used those Henk de Heitbrink New Dutch School bows??? I tried a 300g Ironwood Bow. lol. It's "interesting"

[Felessan]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Awesome. So have you guys used those Henk de Heitbrink New Dutch School bows??? I tried a 300g Ironwood Bow. lol. It's "interesting"

I have.. and I agree with you.. it is, "interesting." LOL. If someone has an insane amount of muscle mass or plays an extremely large bass (I mean, really extremely), I could see it possibly being useful. I have a theory that the "heavy" bow may be an attempt to compensate for basses that are set up poorly, bows that are totally inadequate, and poor technique with standard equipment. That said, the heavy bow requires a different technique than a "standard" bow, and it takes time to learn. You could get used to it, and some people have.

The heavy bow itself wasn't poorly built as far as I could tell, but the specimen that I obtained exhibited all of the same problems that mediocre bows of the "standard" variety have: slow response, odd balance point (in this case, very tip heavy), difficult articulation... also, since it was so damned heavy, it took forever to cross strings--playing octaves felt like moving through molasses. However, someone with massive bow-arm strength could deal with it.

There are some videos floating around of people using these "heavy" bows... It's quite obvious that the bow's weight is inhibiting certain types of bow-strokes and acrobatic maneuvers.

They are so heavy, that as an added bonus you could probably club someone to death with one. (if you are so inclined)

When all is said and done, though, I believe that a "standard" bow is the best available solution for current mainstream orchestral and solo playing styles. They are light enough to allow facile, acrobatic, playing, and heavy enough to get your Mahler on without ruining your shoulder. The design of our "standard" bow is pretty good, and there are many good bows out there that can do everything the "heavy" bow can do (and more)--provided you get one that is actually made well, and made of good materials.

For my purposes (contemporary orchestral, chamber, and solo arco bassist) this "heavy" bow I tried is a no-bow--suitable for experimental bassists, ogres, and Robert Wadlow. I do, however, encourage people to experiment more. The future is exciting!

-Trevor

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by Felessan

I have.. and I agree with you.. it is, "interesting." LOL. If someone has an insane amount of muscle mass or plays an extremely large bass (I mean, really extremely), I could see it possibly being useful. I have a theory that the "heavy" bow may be an attempt to compensate for basses that are set up poorly, bows that are totally inadequate, and poor technique with standard equipment. That said, the heavy bow requires a different technique than a "standard" bow, and it takes time to learn. You could get used to it, and some people have.

The heavy bow itself wasn't poorly built as far as I could tell, but the specimen that I obtained exhibited all of the same problems that mediocre bows of the "standard" variety have: slow response, odd balance point (in this case, very tip heavy), difficult articulation... also, since it was so damned heavy, it took forever to cross strings--playing octaves felt like moving through molasses. However, someone with massive bow-arm strength could deal with it.

There are some videos floating around of people using these "heavy" bows... It's quite obvious that the bow's weight is inhibiting certain types of bow-strokes and acrobatic maneuvers.

They are so heavy, that as an added bonus you could probably club someone to death with one. (if you are so inclined)

When all is said and done, though, I believe that a "standard" bow is the best available solution for current mainstream orchestral and solo playing styles. They are light enough to allow facile, acrobatic, playing, and heavy enough to get your Mahler on without ruining your shoulder. The design of our "standard" bow is pretty good, and there are many good bows out there that can do everything the "heavy" bow can do (and more)--provided you get one that is actually made well, and made of good materials.

For my purposes (contemporary orchestral, chamber, and solo arco bassist) this "heavy" bow I tried is a no-bow--suitable for experimental bassists, ogres, and Robert Wadlow. I do, however, encourage people to experiment more. The future is exciting!

-Trevor

I think Robert Wadlow would have taped 4 New Dutch School French Bows together and used them as one. Perhaps something totalling 1200g would be sufficient.