a good bow and a bad bow

Bijoux · #1 08-13-2009, 11:41 PM

Hi Guys,
I play mainly jazz, but I practice with the bow everyday only for intonation purposes. I know how to hold the bow. One of my basses is strung with Tomastiks Spirocores Mittells, and the other one with Pirastro Obligatos.
I am sure that this has been discussed in other threads, but I am looking for a more specific answer, if anyone can help understand.
I have owned a bunch of bows, and have played a bunch of bows for other bass players, and because of my ignorance on the subject I still can't tell the difference of a good bow and a not so good one. For instance, in the last few years I've seen all kinds of wooden bows in the $100 to $200 price range. (I have a few of those). I also have tried bows that are on the $1000 price range, and honestly couldn't tell the difference. In fact I kind of felt like some of the $120 bows grabbed the string better. But I guess that might have more to do with hair... But again I don't know.
Can you share your own experience and maybe elaborate a little.
Thank you so much in advance.

Andrew McGregor · #2 08-14-2009, 12:15 AM

A lot of it is how the bow helps you make subtle distinctions... so a bow that is really 'grabby' is not necessarily better, because that bow won't help you to play very quietly. That can be about hair too, of course.

You'll find a higher quality bow bounces better, and that's often the most obvious difference. Consistency is important too, especially along the length of the bow.

MDEbass · #3 08-14-2009, 09:21 AM

I agree with all that Andrew said, and also:

To be able to tell the differences between one bow and another, whether the differences be big or small, it requires a good deal of arco experience. What I mean is fluency with all the different bow strokes, articulations, etc. I don't know exactly what your arco experience is, but if you use the bow for only intonation purposes, then it probably doesnt include a wide range of strokes and articulaitions, that would be required in say, an orchestral setting. I assume you mostly just play long connected legato strokes to practice your intonation? If so, it would make sense that you can tell the difference in whether or not it "grabs the string." But just as there is more to a bow than grabbing the string, there are much more aspects of playing arco than you practice.

Square Bear · #4 08-14-2009, 09:46 AM

+1 to everything above.

playability (ease of various bow strokes/grabbing the string, well balanced comfortable weight etc.) is a primary concern when choosing a bow that will work for you. also worth considering is the difference in quality of sound, which in my experience tends to be a huge difference between a more expensive bow and a cheap one, the only way to really tell the quality of sound with a bow is to get in a big room (recital hall or something) with a bunch of bows, YOUR bass and another bassist with a lot of arco experience. play for them and more importantly, have them play for you. you'll be amazed at the difference when you hear it from the other side. play them long enough to have an opinion. you'll adjust to one bow or another after several minutes of playing and the hair will warm up (the comparison will be unfair and misleading between a warm bow you've been playing on for a while and a cold one you just picked up so give it time).

this is also the best way to choose an instrument if you can manage it IMO. hope this helps, and good luck!

Square Bear · #5 08-14-2009, 09:50 AM

also worth mentioning is that a good bow is one that works for the player and for the bass. some bows are versatile and can be well matched with more basses than others, which i suppose makes them better, but find the one that works for you and for your bass!

MDEbass · #6 08-14-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Square Bear

also worth mentioning is that a good bow is one that works for the player and for the bass. some bows are versatile and can be well matched with more basses than others, which i suppose makes them better, but find the one that works for you and for your bass!

+1

Bijoux · #7 08-14-2009, 12:57 PM

Awesome, lots of good advice! Thank you!
I play Jazz, but I have always practice with the bow and I believe I have good intonation. I don't have a lot of time to spend focusing on playing with the bow, but it is something that I have been doing little by little. Eventually I want to get better at it because I believe it's a very important aspect of the instrument.
Thank you.

MDEbass · #8 08-14-2009, 01:28 PM

Good luck!

father of fires · #9 08-14-2009, 01:41 PM

I rarely ever play with a bow so my experience is useless but, the OP's question reminds me of something someone recently said to me.

My buddies brother is a classical guitarist studying at Peabody. We got on the subject of bows one day. He is friends with some of the bassists at his school and he said that they all obsess over thier bows. They claim that they don't find the bow, the bow finds them.

They play as many as they can get thier hands on and when they find "the one" they buy it. One guy had to get his parents to wire him money when he was in Germany to buy a bow. That guy knew it was the right one and had to have it right then.

Maybe, knowing when you found "the one" is the problem that the OP is having but, I like to think then if he finds it he'll just know.

Jesse Rosenburg · #10 08-14-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Square Bear

also worth mentioning is that a good bow is one that works for the player and for the bass. some bows are versatile and can be well matched with more basses than others, which i suppose makes them better, but find the one that works for you and for your bass!

Best advice. Realize that your preferences may change as you progress as a player.

Bijoux · #11 08-14-2009, 03:05 PM

Cool, many thanks to all.
I think I understand some of the aspects.
I guess I am thinking that basically you have to try a bunch a bows, also in my case I would have to have a lot more experience to be able to judge. I guess the one aspect that I am still a bit confused about is that you may find the "right" bow for you and your instrument on the $100 bin... is it impossible that a cheap wooden bow has the balance, finesse, etc that you are looking for? So why exactly one bow costs $100 and another costs $1400? is it safe to say that the more expensive one is going to be a better bow in every aspect no matter what, and therefore is in a different category?

Square Bear · #12 08-14-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bijoux

Cool, many thanks to all.
I think I understand some of the aspects.
I guess I am thinking that basically you have to try a bunch a bows, also in my case I would have to have a lot more experience to be able to judge. I guess the one aspect that I am still a bit confused about is that you may find the "right" bow for you and your instrument on the $100 bin... is it impossible that a cheap wooden bow has the balance, finesse, etc that you are looking for? So why exactly one bow costs $100 and another costs $1400? is it safe to say that the more expensive one is going to be a better bow in every aspect no matter what, and therefore is in a different category?

not at all. a $1400 bow is priced at 1400 on the basis of the maker and their reputation, and generally by the metal used (gold, silver, nickel) which is considered a reflection of the quality by that maker's standard. it may play like a dog on your bass, where a $400 unstamped bow might really sing. when you get into the $3000 range and up you start really finding some special bows, but even then they're priced on the maker and quality/condition and may or may not be what you want. i play on a louis morizot (french grip) that i absolutely love. i knowingly paid more than the bow was worth because i had to have it and couldn't find anything else like it for the price (over 3000 i think). i must have compared it to 20 other bows, some less expensive and some quite a bit more, and it just blew everything out of the water in terms of playability and sound. i had other bassists listen and play for me on them and pretty much everyone agreed that it was the one. you can probably find the bow that works for what you need under 600. under 200 less likely. just out of curiosity, do you play french or german?

MDEbass · #13 08-14-2009, 05:20 PM

In the bows around the $100-200 dollar range, you are probably not as likely to find the balance and finesse that you are looking for. Bows from this range are usually made from brazilwood. Now, I've played a few brazilwood bows that actually were pretty decent, but compared to pernambuco bows (around the $750+ range), the brazilwood bows really lacked the balance, comfort, and consistency from frog to tip that the pernambuco bows gives. I mean, its all preference, so if THE bow for you happens to be $100 dollars, then that may be the one, but not at all likely. Just try everything that your budget allows, and even try out more expensive bows also just for the experience of seeing the wide range of differences in bows.

And to answer your question about why one bow could cost 100 and another 1400, in addition to what Square Bear said, there are some other factors: cheaper bows are often factory-made and mass produced, etc, while more higher end bows are totally hand made. Of course, the handmade bow would be more expensive, not only because it will most likely be better quality, but also the more labor that goes into it. Also, the wood used is a factor. Brazilwood, of what I understand, is an inexpensive, readily available wood, that holds the properties required for a decent bow (sturdy yet flexible, etc.) Pernambuco, on the other hand, is becoming increasingly rare and there is only a limited supply, so naturally, this wood is more expensive. The main reason why pernambuco bows are more expensive though, is because its properties are ideal for what a bow requires, and has been traditionally used for bows.

Also, what makes up the range between the cheaper brazilwood and higher end pernambuco, is carbon fiber. These are becoming more popular and can range from $300+. I don't have any first-hand experience with carbon fiber actually, so I don't have much to say about these. But there are plenty of other threads about carbon fiber bows if you want to find out more about them.

Hope this helps

Bijoux · #14 08-14-2009, 05:28 PM

Awesome thank you.
I have a French and a German bow. I paid about $450 for each one many years ago. after that I inherit a few other bows and I don't know who is the maker,(probably mass produced) and I don't know what kind of wood they are made out of.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Andrew McGregor · #15 08-14-2009, 11:37 PM

So, about carbon fiber bows: they're not priced on rarity value of the materials (carbon, nomex and epoxy are industrial materials, after all). Instead, they're priced on the labour and tooling cost to make them. Generally they're very good value for money, even the more expensive ones.

The feel of a good carbon bow is a bit different, because they tend to have very little character... but that means no quirks or inconsistencies either. As far as sound is concerned, I can detect no difference that could not be explained by the hair and weight differences. I tried around a dozen bows, mostly pernambuco but also four carbons, before I settled on a David Gage Metropolitan, which was the most 'user friendly' of the bows I tried (the Codabow series were very close, not so surprising given that they're made in the same shop).