Help with a bow search

[jeannette ellis]

Thanks in advance for any advise offered. I want to buy a good bow for my 14 year old. German bow. Upright bass .Has been playing for 4 years. Pretty much self taught. Attends an art magnet school where she plays in both the advance strings & band classes. Has an excellent bass & bow at school but at home we only have a student model. Have to stick with this bass for the next few years because of cost. But the bow really sucks and has to go! At home she took up jazz playing which doesn't really need the bow . Loves jazz even more than classical. I want to buy a good bow that will last her thru hi school. Big sister is at a conservatory (violin), so I bet this one is headed there as well, and know that an upgrade is required at that point! Since neither parents play any instruments but pay the bills, we need to be able to recognize value when we see it. So, I have a couple of questions that I would love to get advise on; 1. I know that pernambuco is traditional but have read that carbon-fiber (which is nicely priced) won't warp & is indestructable. Any one care to weigh in, given what I have said so far? 2. Bows are beautiful with sterling silver, mother of pearl, lizard skin wrap... do any of these things make a difference in quality of play, meaning, do they represent a superior bow or are they just for looks? 3. Black or white horesehair, personal preferance or does it effect tone for example? 4. Suggested bow weight for big strong girl or is that too a matter of preferance? 5. One thing she needs to work on is getting a bigger louder sound (maybe a confidence issue) Any suggestions? I have plenty more questions but I will wait and see what I get from this first round.

[Basschair]

Hi Jeannette,

I only had a moment, so wasn't able to read all of your post. Still, my initial impression leads me to think that you'd probably benefit from some bow trials. I know that Lemur Music (www.lemurmusic.com) will send out bows on a trial basis, and the last time I checked they only required a credit card number as a deposit. They are definitely a reputable company. Off the top of my head I can't remember who else is doing trials, but there's got to be some...hopefully someone will chime in here with other names.

As far as the wrap, grip, and all that...my belief is that the high-quality materials are mainly ornamentation (not to say they aren't nice). It's much more important to have a bow that is weighted appropriately to the player, and to have a bow that is properly balanced.

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by jeannette ellis

1. I know that pernambuco is traditional but have read that carbon-fiber (which is nicely priced) won't warp & is indestructable. Any one care to weigh in, given what I have said so far? 2. Bows are beautiful with sterling silver, mother of pearl, lizard skin wrap... do any of these things make a difference in quality of play, meaning, do they represent a superior bow or are they just for looks? 3. Black or white horesehair, personal preferance or does it effect tone for example? 4. Suggested bow weight for big strong girl or is that too a matter of preferance? 5. One thing she needs to work on is getting a bigger louder sound (maybe a confidence issue) Any suggestions? I have plenty more questions but I will wait and see what I get from this first round.

1. I never thought much about carbon bows, but I recently learned of a virtuoso player who bought one and liked it. If my memory is correct, he paid about $700 for it. I'll try to find out more.

2. Looks

3. Personal preference, but there are differences. Black hair is coarser, and grips better - tone is different with white hair. Try both. May depend on the bow.

4. Preference

5. You didn't mention whether she has private instruction. If not, you should get her a teacher outside of school, unless you have an excellent (not ok) bass instructor at the school. IMO

Kudos to you for getting her started so young, and for supporting her passion for music!

Jim

[jeannette ellis]

Thank you. Parenting a musician is a joy.

[jallenbass]

Carbow makes excellent carbon-fiber bows.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

..... 2. Looks ....... 5. You didn't mention whether she has private instruction. If not, you should get her a teacher outside of school, unless you have an excellent (not ok) bass instructor at the school. IMO ......

Not necessarily. True, the mother of pearl and silver are only ornamental and have nothing to do with the bow. But bowmakers will not go out of their way and add extra expense to their bows to put these on if they did not mean something. Bowmakers will tend to put sterling silver, gold, and other expensive ornaments on their bows because the bow stick is of higher quality than usual. These ornaments usually mean a better bow, though not all the time.

A lot of bowmakers of thousand dollar and higher bows will denote the quality of the bow by the ornaments, the name stamp on the bow, and of course the price. Even with Chinese bowmakers, who can make good bows according to your design at a low price, if you decide to buy a bow without mother of pearl, silver, and other ornaments, they will make you a bow with a lower quality stick. That's just the way things go.


And should your daughter go towards the conservatory path, then she MUST get a teacher. Without a doubt. She can definitely play decently if she is self-taught, but she will more than likely have many faults with her playing and even pick up bad habits. A good teacher will correct those faults and bad habits so that she can not only continue playing, but progress much further than she would self-taught. Only very rarely can a self-taught become a world class player.


In the search for bows, though, take what I said above with a grain of salt. In the end, your daughter must actually try out the bow before you buy one, and she should try out as many as she can. And if you can, have the teacher or a symphony or orchestra player try out the bow, because they can usually hear and feel the differences between each bow.

[jeannette ellis]

Wonderful advise. From all. Shall use every bit of it. In fact, am already on the look out for a local teacher.
And a couple of shops have contacted me offering to let her testing out their bows.
As I said, she loves her school bow and believes it to be of good quality. I am planning to take it to David Kerr's in Portland Or to have him give me the specs on the school bow. That would tell me her prefered length and weight. Can I assume that no matter the name or model, that common specs will produce similar results and if not, what other variables should be considered?
JE

[quenoil]

Originally Posted by jeannette ellis

Wonderful advise. From all. Shall use every bit of it. In fact, am already on the look out for a local teacher.
And a couple of shops have contacted me offering to let her testing out their bows.
As I said, she loves her school bow and believes it to be of good quality. I am planning to take it to David Kerr's in Portland Or to have him give me the specs on the school bow. That would tell me her prefered length and weight. Can I assume that no matter the name or model, that common specs will produce similar results and if not, what other variables should be considered?
JE

Oddly, the specs may not get you as far as you might expect. There's quite a bit of alchemy involved in bows.... the weight and length are definitely going to help narrow the field, but after that its probably up to some characteristics that are harder to define. Any reputable dealer should be willing to send you bows on trial (usually you'll pay the shipping). So, I'd get a bunch of bows in your price range to pass through your daughter's hands and see which one grabs her.

[Basschair]

It's funny that you put this down, because I was half way through a post conveying the exact same sentiment earlier today, but didn't end up submitting it because I just couldn't get my thoughts out on the page.


+1

Originally Posted by dchan

Not necessarily. True, the mother of pearl and silver are only ornamental and have nothing to do with the bow. But bowmakers will not go out of their way and add extra expense to their bows to put these on if they did not mean something. Bowmakers will tend to put sterling silver, gold, and other expensive ornaments on their bows because the bow stick is of higher quality than usual. These ornaments usually mean a better bow, though not all the time.

A lot of bowmakers of thousand dollar and higher bows will denote the quality of the bow by the ornaments, the name stamp on the bow, and of course the price. Even with Chinese bowmakers, who can make good bows according to your design at a low price, if you decide to buy a bow without mother of pearl, silver, and other ornaments, they will make you a bow with a lower quality stick. That's just the way things go.

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by dchan

Not necessarily. True, the mother of pearl and silver are only ornamental and have nothing to do with the bow. But bowmakers will not go out of their way and add extra expense to their bows to put these on if they did not mean something. Bowmakers will tend to put sterling silver, gold, and other expensive ornaments on their bows because the bow stick is of higher quality than usual. These ornaments usually mean a better bow, though not all the time.

Yes, I agree. But her daughter should be able to feel/hear the quality and not pick the bow for the pearl/silver.

Jim

[DaveAceofBass]

I suggest having her do some study with a French bow before comitting to the German bow. German is usually easier at first, but most orchestras use French now from what I understand, and it will allow her to stand up straight while she's playing. Francois Rabbath is a virtuoso of the French bow and has a great video, the Art of the Bow. There is someone on www.bassgear.com selling a Gilles Duhaut bow for a good price. I'd check into that. Also, George Vance (www.slavapub.net) might sell some German bows if you want to stick to that route, and he will send them for you to try.

I might add that I bought a French style Prochownik bow from George Vance about a year ago. I tried about 7 or 8 out before deciding on that one. I love it, it was a great buy. I spoke with Prochownik on the phone, and he's a really nice. He plays in the Winnipeg Symhpony so he knows what's good. I believe he's Russian originally... Anyway he makes German bows too. The price is reasonable for a high quality bow, about $1400 or so. His website is http://www.mts.net/~prochown/
He makes lighter weight bows which may help to reduce tendonitis in the wrist and allow for more control of the tip. You can still get a big sound from them. I recommend checking into Z. Prochownik.

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by DaveAceofBass

I suggest having her do some study with a French bow before comitting to the German bow. German is usually easier at first, but most orchestras use French now from what I understand, and it will allow her to stand up straight while she's playing.

I have to strongly (but respectfully)disagree with the above statement. Let her stay on German.

[jsbarber]

I respectfully disagree with you both. Find the best teacher you can, and have your daughter play whatever kind of bow he/she tells her to play. It is the teacher's job to make this decision, or to permit the student to choose if they wish.

Jim

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by Stan Haskins

I have to strongly (but respectfully)disagree with the above statement. Let her stay on German.

All I meant was it's good to REALLY try both before you decide. They both have advantages. Personally, I favor the French (could you tell?). Just give it a chance before you commit one way or the other.

I still say check out the Prochownik--French or German.

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

I respectfully disagree with you both. Find the best teacher you can, and have your daughter play whatever kind of bow he/she tells her to play. It is the teacher's job to make this decision, or to permit the student to choose if they wish.

Jim

Usually a good private teacher will have alot of influence on which style of bow you choose.

[ClassicalBass]

On the other hand, if she's been playing the bass for four years, and had been playing German that entire time, she might be better off sticking with German. She must be fairly comfortable with that style by now.

I always thought a private teacher should be accepting of the student's choice in the bow; besides, many great bassists can get near-equal quality out of each, despite their preference. My teacher plays German, and has never suggested that I make the switch from French...and he has helped me greatly in improving my French technique. Well, just my thoughts anyway - any objections?

[Blaine]

i don't know,,, but i feel a bit uneasy with suggesting a $1500-2000 bow for someone playing for 4 years. my first suggestion would be to have the bow looked at and rehaired by a proffessional. if a new bow is in order i would look at something like the ken smith bows, probably the $200 one, and put the money into lessons. and camps. and more lessons.
personally, i have some expensive bows ($2000+) but recently got one of those $130 carbonfiber bows from yita on ebay that i just love.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Blaine

i don't know,,, but i feel a bit uneasy with suggesting a $1500-2000 bow for someone playing for 4 years. my first suggestion would be to have the bow looked at and rehaired by a proffessional. if a new bow is in order i would look at something like the ken smith bows, probably the $200 one, and put the money into lessons. and camps. and more lessons.
personally, i have some expensive bows ($2000+) but recently got one of those $130 carbonfiber bows from yita on ebay that i just love.

Definitely agree on that. There are plenty of decent bows around that don't cost $1000 and up as you said, and I would suggest these bows for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience or even a teacher yet.

In order to appreciate those more expensive bows, it's better to learn to appreciate the cheaper decent ones first, IMO. Later when you play more expensive and better bow, you'll know the flaws and limitations of your previous bow.

[Rodger Bryan]

I second the recommendation that you find an excellent private instructor before spending any money on a bow. Once the German/French issue is ironed out, a bow audition with the teacher would be the next step.

For my students who play jazz- I insist that they play with the bow, regardless. I find that if students neglect the arco playing in the developing stages, their intonation and speed of adjustment is not as fine-tuned and their left hand technique will develop at a slower rate.

As for the ratio of French to German in professional orchestras: take another look. it's probably in the neighborhood of 50/50. I wonder how this differs with geography.
peace!

[quenoil]

Originally Posted by Rodger Bryan

As for the ratio of French to German in professional orchestras: take another look. it's probably in the neighborhood of 50/50. I wonder how this differs with geography.
peace!

It would be interesting to know if this varies geographically. Here in Minnesota, of the 10 bass players in the big local orchestras (MN Orch and St Paul Chamber Orch) there are only 2 german players. This should probably be a different thread, but I wonder what its like in other areas of the country.