How to tell it is Brazilwood or Pernambuco?

[bassguy001]

Hi,
Is there a way to tell if the bow is a Brazilwood or Pernambuco wood? It seems that the only way to know is to ask the bow maker or dealer.
Any suggestion?
Many thanks

bassguy001

[depalm]

Well, since Pernambuco is in Brazil it's all Brazilian wood. :-)

[Silversorcerer]

Both of these come from the same tree also. It's kind of like pine versus heart-of-pine. I think (could be wrong) that pernambucco is the heartwood of the tree and brazilwood is the younger wood of the same tree. There is a slight color and grain difference in my experience with Pernam being oranger with a more visible grain and Brazilwood being darker, redder, and more continuous in the grain. Pernambucco is usually preferred. I'd just go by how it plays. I've played with a whole lot of bows and under $1000, it is not always the case that P is better than B.

[toman]

I'm sure there are plenty of guys here who have seen more bows that I, but I've seen a lot and in my opinion, you can't. I think on newer bows, pernambuco will more often have an orangish tint to it, while brazilwood will be brown, but whether that's the wood or the finish, I don't know. To me, I don't care what it's made from! If the bow plays great and is made from spruce, fiberglass, carbon, whatever, it's worth what it's worth and I'll buy it. I think since both woods come from the same tree, it's pointless to try to determine what part of the tree it came from; just play as many bows as you can, and find the best one that fits your budget, regardless.

[escofhari]

Sirloin or ny strip?

[Roger Mouton]

All Hail Bob!

Please jump in here. You sell both. How do YOU tell?

[Roger Mouton]

All Hail Ken Smith as well!

Both you and Bob give so much useful information. Please also feel free to jump in here. You sell both as well. How do YOU tell?

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Both of these come from the same tree also. It's kind of like pine versus heart-of-pine. I think (could be wrong) that pernambucco is the heartwood of the tree and brazilwood is the younger wood of the same tree. There is a slight color and grain difference in my experience with Pernam being oranger with a more visible grain and Brazilwood being darker, redder, and more continuous in the grain. Pernambucco is usually preferred. than B.

What Silversorcerer says is correct. The most visible difference is that the grain of pernambuco is much tighter since it is from the middle of the wood. This makes it a much denser piece of wood, and it will generally hold its camber better. There are differences in color, but this can be cosmetically altered to look the same.
I have also heard that pernambuco will sink in the bathtub. (not recommended for your bow) That doesn't mean that all brazilwood bows are crap, a well balanced brazilwood bow beats a so-so pernambuco any day,
it just means, in general, pernambuco is more responsive.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Who decides if it's Pernambuco or Brazilwood when looking at a pile of random sticks? Whose word is law? Do you always get what's claimed to be?

I have seen good and bad with both labeling of these woods. I even have an old Bazin made from Ipe aka 'pau d'arco' which is also from Brazil

The common name, pau d'arco, is Portuguese meaning bow wood. Natives made hunting bows from the dense resilient wood found in many of the Tabebuia species. The wood is still used for training weapons especially in the martial arts.

Well, my Bazin is also MY secret weapon as well.
On some basses, it's the best sound Bow in my collection.

Caesalpinia echinata

bra·zil·wood (brə-zĭl'wʊd') pronunciation
n.

The reddish wood of certain tropical trees or shrubs in the pea family, especially a Brazilian tree Caesalpinia echinata, whose wood is used for violin bows and as a source of a red or purplish dye.

[Obsolete brazil, brazilwood (from Middle English brasile, from Old Spanish or Portuguese brasil, probably of East Indian origin) + WOOD1.]

Brazilwood
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brazilwood or Pau-Brasil, sometimes known as Pernambuco (Caesalpinia echinata syn. Guilandina echinata (Lam.) Spreng.) is a Brazilian timber tree. This plant has a dense, orange-red wood (which takes a high shine), and it is the premier wood used for making bows for string instruments from the violin family. The wood also yields a red dye called brazilin, which oxidizes to brazilein.

What was the questions again. Sorry, I got carried away.

What would I do without Google?...lol

[brandonwong]

+1 Bazin!

I recently won an eBay unstamped Bazin bow and just got it from the post office minutes back.
I tested it against a Gotz. french bow and my beloved H. R. Pfretzschner german Bow.
For the first 3 mins, the bow sounded nice but not spectacular.
(even my girlfriend commented the Pfretzschner sounded better from 15 feet away, and without me asking )

To my surprise, 5 mins later.... the Bazin sounded much fuller and with better clarity and grip on the lower positions. It's as if i've turn up the treble and sub bass knobs in comparison to my HR. P.
(yes, my gf testified the change in sound also.)
Because of the better grip on the strings, i can play much faster on a bass that i thought couldn't cut as an orchestra or solo classical bass.
Flatback, ply back/sides, carved top.

I'm solely a German player all my life, but this bow has definitely made a serve in direction to pursue this grip more.
Ken, i still dunno if this is a "real" bazin but it looks similar to yours but unstamped. (Butterfly screw and similar bow heads, frog)
Will try and send you some photos on your forum.

[Bob Gollihur]

Originally Posted by Roger Mouton

All Hail Bob!

Please jump in here. You sell both. How do YOU tell?

I look carefully at the invoice, and...

At least in the cases of those I've handled and have, the coloration differences as mentioned above are noticeable. But I know enough to say that I don't know enough. I'm no wood expert, I trust my sources.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by brandonwong

+1 Bazin!

I recently won an eBay unstamped Bazin bow and just got it from the post office minutes back.
I tested it against a Gotz. french bow and my beloved H. R. Pfretzschner german Bow.
For the first 3 mins, the bow sounded nice but not spectacular.
(even my girlfriend commented the Pfretzschner sounded better from 15 feet away, and without me asking )

To my surprise, 5 mins later.... the Bazin sounded much fuller and with better clarity and grip on the lower positions. It's as if i've turn up the treble and sub bass knobs in comparison to my HR. P.
(yes, my gf testified the change in sound also.)
Because of the better grip on the strings, i can play much faster on a bass that i thought couldn't cut as an orchestra or solo classical bass.
Flatback, ply back/sides, carved top.

I'm solely a German player all my life, but this bow has definitely made a serve in direction to pursue this grip more.
Ken, i still dunno if this is a "real" bazin but it looks similar to yours but unstamped. (Butterfly screw and similar bow heads, frog)
Will try and send you some photos on your forum.

Which member of the Bazin family is the Bow purported to be made by? Was there a certificate from Raffin with the bow?

My Bazin was probably made as a common Bow in its time. The wood to me looks to be Ipe but has another name on the certificate. Either way, it is a great playing bow compared to the 2 Bultitudes and several Lipkins I have owned in the last few years. For some techniques it is superior to all of my other Bows. It loves to 'dance'. For harder digging in orchestra music I pick the Lipkins that sounds and plays best on the Bass that I will be using. I sold both Bultitudes so I am down with Lipkins which are close in playability and sound. Both Bultitudes and most of the Lipkins were lucky finds. I am always hunting for good bows.