I gotta "man up" arco - but NEED your help

[sonofabass]

Basically, I've only been playing double bass for a about a year and a half. I have been running like a punk in the penn from arco playing .

1 because I suck...
2 because I probably suck more than usual becuase of the warped kiddy bows that were provided by my college.

I do believe that it's more pilot than plane BUT - we all have a better chance of surviving when the plane is in good running order.

I don't want to spent a small fortune on a bow BUT I do want to upgrade but have NO idea whatsoever what to look for.

Any suggestion are AWESOME-

Thanks in advance!

[LM Bass]

Hi sonofabass,

Good for you for taking this on!

Lemur music has some good Ary bows that aren't expensive. Also check out Bob Gollihur's site for good deals. I really like Nyman or Kolstein soft rosin, but others like Pops and other types. Fresh rosin makes a big difference.

Try to keep your bow approximately parallel with the bridge, and placed about halfway between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard. Then you have to learn to control the amount of arm weight you transfer to the bow stick, and the speed at which you move the bow. That's a long study, but it's do-able with lots of patience and SLOW daily scales. Keep your shoulders down and your hand relaxed. Try to make your note start evenly, and keep the dynamic constant throughout your stroke.

All the bass,
Laurence

[sonofabass]

thanks a bunch Laurence!

[dchan]

Get a new bow. Get some decent rosin. Get some decent arco strings.

All of these are really important. But if you try to learn arco alone, they won't do you much good. So FINALLY, get a good arco teacher. Laurence's advice is decent, but it is no substitute for a teacher.

[LM Bass]

I agree, but "get a teacher" is such a default-response to these questions, I thought I'd defer to whoever posted next!

[dchan]

Originally Posted by LM Bass

I agree, but "get a teacher" is such a default-response to these questions, I thought I'd defer to whoever posted next!

Believe me, I was thinking of putting a "I hate to say this" before "get a teacher."

[Eli_Upright12]

What kind of bow are you playing right now, French or German?

[willroland]

Yes, as always, get a teacher, BUT....you can learn on your own too. I am in the same boat...a pretty accomplished jazz player but a total rookie with the bow and orchestral playing. For me, the keys that open the "arco door" are:

1. Get a decent bow. Spend some money, at least $500 for an entry level bow that has good balance and tip weight. My first bow was good enough for long notes at the end of jazz ballads, but working through the back half the "orange book" (Simandl) was virtually impossible with my cheap bow.

2. Get good quality rosin.

3. Make sure you have strings that support arco...at least some good "hybrid" strings. If you are like me and play jazz too, then going for a full-blown arco setup is probably not practical.

4. Get the Rabbath video, "The Art of the Bow"....HUGE help and motivator.

5. Get into a local community orchestra and play as much as you can.

6. Study, study, practice, practice.

I hope that helps.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by willroland

Yes, as always, get a teacher, BUT....you can learn on your own too. I am in the same boat...a pretty accomplished jazz player but a total rookie with the bow and orchestral playing. For me, the keys that open the "arco door" are:

1. Get a decent bow. Spend some money, at least $500 for an entry level bow that has good balance and tip weight. My first bow was good enough for long notes at the end of jazz ballads, but working through the back half the "orange book" (Simandl) was virtually impossible with my cheap bow.

2. Get good quality rosin.

3. Make sure you have strings that support arco...at least some good "hybrid" strings. If you are like me and play jazz too, then going for a full-blown arco setup is probably not practical.

4. Get the Rabbath video, "The Art of the Bow"....HUGE help and motivator.

5. Get into a local community orchestra and play as much as you can.

6. Study, study, practice, practice.

I hope that helps.

You can definitely to learn on your own. But getting a teacher will help reinforce good habits. In addition, you'll find that you're going to get better so much faster.

And definitely +1 on getting a good beginners bow. Not only can you do more things with one than with a cheap crappy bow, but everything is so much easier also. Don't cheap out on the bow if you can help it.

[sonofabass]

you all have been great. thank you
here's my situation, a little more complete

1. the bass doesn't belong to me, but the school so I won't put money into it

2. I'm taking lessons (via the school with Glenn Richmann who is awesome - admittedly we haven't worked that much on arco - it's a time/school thing which is pointless to discuss here.

3. after I play with the bow for a few minutes my right hand hurts like hell and I get so frustrated I just want to cut it off

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by sonofabass

you all have been great. thank you
here's my situation, a little more complete

1. the bass doesn't belong to me, but the school so I won't put money into it

2. I'm taking lessons (via the school with Glenn Richmann who is awesome - admittedly we haven't worked that much on arco.

3. after I play with the bow for a few minutes my right hand hurts like hell and I get so frustrated I just want to cut it off

Blunt answers to your comments-

1. I can understand not wanting to sink money into a school Bass, But couldn't you talk to the Chairperson or somebody in the department about shelling out some money for instrument maintenance?

2. Taking lessons, good. But exactly what are you working
on?

3. If your hand hurts, you are holding the bow wrong and too tightly. You haven't said it yet, but I suspect you are playing french. You may want to try German grip. You can get a decent cost effective bow from Bob Gollihur or Upton Bass. Check 'em out. I also agree with the previous post about the Rabbath video,
if you want to continue playing french grip.

Lastly, what are your goals? Do you want to be a classical player, a Jazz player, a freelance bassist, or just a guy that likes to play? If your answer includes any of these, you should start at least thinking about getting your own bass.
Just my .02

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by sonofabass

you all have been great. thank you
here's my situation, a little more complete

1. the bass doesn't belong to me, but the school so I won't put money into it

2. I'm taking lessons (via the school with Glenn Richmann who is awesome - admittedly we haven't worked that much on arco - it's a time/school thing which is pointless to discuss here.

3. after I play with the bow for a few minutes my right hand hurts like hell and I get so frustrated I just want to cut it off

- I don't know Glenn, but we teach in the same city, and I have had some former students of his. He has a good reputation, however, a double bass teacher who does not place a high priority on arco with his students is questionable at best.
Being self taught is one thing, paying for lessons that don't make arco the #1 priority is another.
I hate to be critical of a direct peer, but that is a really bad sign and not at all in your best interest.


Being that you are in the Bay Area, you can get a decent bow at A and G music in downtown Oakland.
If you are using French and your hand is hurting, AND you don't have very specific reason for using French, try a German bow.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by reedo35

..... 1. I can understand not wanting to sink money into a school Bass, But couldn't you talk to the Chairperson or somebody in the department about shelling out some money for instrument maintenance?

2. Taking lessons, good. But exactly what are you working
on?

3. If your hand hurts, you are holding the bow wrong and too tightly. You haven't said it yet, but I suspect you are playing french. You may want to try German grip. You can get a decent cost effective bow from Bob Gollihur or Upton Bass. Check 'em out. I also agree with the previous post about the Rabbath video, if you want to continue playing french grip.

Lastly, what are your goals? Do you want to be a classical player, a Jazz player, a freelance bassist, or just a guy that likes to play? If your answer includes any of these, you should start at least thinking about getting your own bass.
Just my .02

1. That's what I'm doing! I have recently asked the orchestral director to get the school's Juzek (which I use) as well as another bass to get setup and repaired. I wonder whether it's a good idea for the school to keep a carved bass around given the surroundings they keep it in. There are a few cracks that have developed because of climate changes and humidity control problems. Maybe badgering the department to get a bag for the bass will help.

2. and 3. A good bow goes a long way towards making your bow-hold less painful. It will be just so much easier to play that you'll find yourself loosening up your bow-hold to draw a decent sound. But in order to make some true progress, a good arco teacher is the most helpful.

Also, I suggest looking at Ken Smith's bows as well. They're really nice bows for their price.

[sonofabass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- I don't know Glenn, but we teach in the same city, and I have had some former students of his. He has a good reputation, however, a double bass teacher who does not place a high priority on arco with his students is questionable at best.
Being self taught is one thing, paying for lessons that don't make arco the #1 priority is another.
I hate to be critical of a direct peer, but that is a really bad sign and not at all in your best interest.


Being that you are in the Bay Area, you can get a decent bow at A and G music in downtown Oakland.
If you are using French and your hand is hurting, AND you don't have very specific reason for using French, try a German bow.

In "defense" of Glenn...it's not him, it's "the school" ...you know, it's one of those situations that could be EASILY misread here. I know Glenn's frustrations about not being able to follow "his" teaching method.

I only get 30 min a week with him. He's a great teacher and bassist.
Re; the bass...it's actually the best one the school has.

I freelance quite a bit and have since I was about 18, but on electric bass. I only started playing DB to fulfill school obligations although I do enjoy it. I have no interest on being a classical player but need a certain amount of technique to audition for the program at my next school.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by sonofabass

In "defense" of Glenn...it's not him, it's "the school" ...you know, it's one of those situations that could be EASILY misread here. I know Glenn's frustrations about not being able to follow "his" teaching method.

I only get 30 min a week with him. He's a great teacher and bassist.
Re; the bass...it's actually the best one the school has.

I freelance quite a bit and have since I was about 18, but on electric bass. I only started playing DB to fulfill school obligations although I do enjoy it. I have no interest on being a classical player but need a certain amount of technique to audition for the program at my next school.

I hear you, but lessons for double bass no matter the style should put a strong focus on arco or they are just not professional. As I said, Glenn has a great reputation, but arco is the foundation of serious study of the instrument. There have been some great jazz players who have gotten by without it, but it is key for a serious educator to make it priority #1.
After I took about a year of mostly classical lessons with Lisle Ellis, I went to a local jazz pro named Michael Jones, the first order of business was Simandl.
He was not going to talk about any jazz theory or technique until he heard me go through some Simandl.

Also, and this is just not said enough, getting the double bass to sing with the bow is one of the great pleasures of life, and is not something to be feared or dreaded!

[sonofabass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I hear you, but lessons for double bass no matter the style should put a strong focus on arco or they are just not professional. As I said, Glenn has a great reputation, but arco is the foundation of serious study of the instrument. There have been some great jazz players who have gotten by without it, but it is key for a serious educator to make it priority #1.
After I took about a year of mostly classical lessons with Lisle Ellis, I went to a local jazz pro named Michael Jones, the first order of business was Simandl.
He was not going to talk about any jazz theory or technique until he heard me go through some Simandl.

Also, and this is just not said enough, getting the double bass to sing with the bow is one of the great pleasures of life, and is not something to be feared or dreaded!

Hey all. I really appreciate you!

Look - to the posts re: Glenn - he has tried to make the CORE of his teaching Simandle - at the school I attend.

Just so I don't get any wrong ides about Glenn. (I'm trying to keep all of this as PC as possible for my future's and sanity's sake.


Now - this is my view of my story (ha, that just sounds silly but we'll leave it.

1. I'm 37 and have been playing bass for many years. Although late in the game I figure out that I wanted to go back to school. So two years ago that's what I did. My goal is to become a music teacher. Anyway I got "talked into the jazz program, not auditioned because - well, because; "You got great feel"...

2. I'm also from New Orleans which makes people think that you must be able to swing like nobody's business. Not true. (now I've given away too much, more of myself than I'd cared to but I want to explain my situation with Glenn) \

So I'm in this Jazz program just trying to hang on and, while Glenn is trying to teach Simandl I'm like - "but wait, can you help me with this tune for the concert next wee?" - half hour blown. I don't realize that all this Jazz stuff isn't going to fulfill any transfer requirements.

I just want everyone on this board to know that Glenn does stress arco and simandle in his private lessons but in the 30 minute lessons at the school he had been "forced" to change his methods around a bit - something we've talked about a great deal and he doesn't like it. Anyway....it's a matter of the circumstances for both of us (I refuse to say "victim")

at this hour of the am I hope I made sense.

I just need a bow :-)

[greitzer]

Originally Posted by sonofabass

I just need a bow :-)

Sonofa -- a couple of places you could try (assuming you are in the San Francisco Bay Area) --

1) Best Instrument Repair in downtown Oakland (not to be confused with BEST Instruments). Best Instrument Repair is affiliated with A&G Music, they're just a few doors away from each other, I think on 14th Street right near the big federal towers in Oakland. Best Instrument Repair has a bass workshop and the bass guy there is Greg Smithson. He has a number of bows at pretty reasonable prices. Some new, some used.

2) Ifshin Violins in Berkeley. They were on University Avenue but they may have moved to a new location on San Pablo Avenue, you could look 'em up. They have bass bows but generally they are more expensive than Best Instrument Repair.

Try a few and see which feels most comfortable to you. If you wanna go mail order, Lemur Music will send you two or three bows and you can try them all out, then buy the one you want and send the others back (or send 'em all back if you don't like any of them.

Good luck.

[SteveFreides]

I started with a Glasser fiberglass and horse hair bow - did fine for me, cost $65 from http://www.bassesonline.com. No, it's not fantastic, but it's straight, it's horse hair, and it's a bargain. I've got both a German and a French version here, neither used much, that I'm happy to sell anyone interested. Email steve@kbnj.com.

I'm currently playing a Glasser composite bow which cost about $160 and also a borrowed wooden bow of unknown origins.

What to spend on a bow has to depend, I think, at least somewhat on what you spent on your bass. The Glasser aren't great, like I said, but more importantly perhaps, they aren't awful, either.

Just a novice's opinion here, worth what you paid for it.

-S-

[damonsmith]

There are few things more useless than a fiberglass bow. You can get a cheap brazilwood bow for less from either A and G or ebay.
Good to hear more about Glenn's program, I was in a similar situation when I taught for Oakland school for the arts, I still forced in Arco, but it was tough.
As I said, his rep. is very solid.

[worldfamousandy]

I recently bought a Sunrise pernambuco bow from Lemur, and I am very happy with it. It was under $500. I know they have some others for around $150, also, and they look like they'd be worth trying.

I am also taking db seriously rather late in life, so I can relate to your position. I am a 38 year old professional bassist (primarily electric). I have been playing a lot of upright on jazz gigs in the past year, but I was not able to study with an instructor until about a month ago. He started off immediately with a heavy emphasis on arco, which seemed a little odd to me, because he is unquestionably a jazz bassist.

After only about a month of lessons, I understand why he takes this approach. Arco playing has forced me to become much more precise with my left hand. It has also caused me to think more about the amount of pressure I put on the strings with my left hand.

We also work on pizz playing, and I really notice the benefits there. My pizz tone is twice as good as it was only a month ago, and I attribute that to better left hand technique and strength. Notes are clearer, attack is stronger, pitches are better-defined, and I feel like I can swing better.

I realized I would gain these advantages from proper study of the instrument. What I did not realize is how much I would want to bow the bass because of the beautiful sound you can make (once you get the hang of it. Before that happens, it's the most God-awful thing you've ever heard). I am excited to become proficient to the point where I can play in a community orchestra, or maybe try some duets.

I definitely would not have been able to get much of this without an instructor. I study with Bill Plummer, and he is absolutely fantastic. Admittedly, I have jumped into this endeavor lock, stock, and barrel, with 2-hour lessons and 4-6 hours of practice each day. Whatever your degree of commitment, though, I'm sure your gains from arco study will be worthwhile.

Arco has injected a ton of excitment into my practice routine, that's for sure!