Octagonal vs. Round sticks

Larry Ames · #1 10-19-2009, 08:09 PM

I am purchasing a new pernambuco bow (German). Can anyone tell me the effective differences between an octagonal stick and a round stick? Is one lighter, stronger, more agile?

Brent Nussey · #2 10-20-2009, 08:26 PM

All bows start out octagonal. They're carved from the original piece of wood into an octagon shape, and bent. Then in a last step of the process, the maker shaves it round. Ocatagonal bows are just bows where the maker decided not to carve it round. Sue Lipkins told me in her earlier years as a bowmaker, she often would get the stick to that rounding stage and be so happy with the bow that she wouldn't want to change a thing, so she'd end up with an octagonal stick. But in recent times she considers the final rounding of the bow more as she's making it, she sort of imagines how it will be rounded right from the beginning, so most of her bows are rounded now.

Basically, it's aesthetics and/or a result of each maker's individual process and/or the qualities of a given bow as it reaches the finished state. IMHO, you shouldn't consider it as a factor, choose the bow based on how it plays and sounds.

Brent

ClassicalBassNY · #3 10-22-2009, 11:48 PM

Thank you Brent, that was very insightful. I feel the round stick is much more classy and refined, the grain is much more viewable. But again only an aesthetic concern.

Brent Nussey · #4 10-23-2009, 07:46 AM

My pleasure. If you're ever in NYC, Salchow's has, or at least used to have, a nice little glass case displaying bows in the various stages of the making process. You can exactly see how the process happens.

For myself, I have an octagonal bow by Lawrence LaMay and a round one by Sue Lipkins. Sue's bow is astonishingly beautiful, but because of her skills and the gorgeous wood she used, I'm sure if she had done mine octagonally it would be just as lovely. Still somehow round just seems so right for this bow. I've played a couple of octagonal bows by Tom Dignan, one of which won the ISB competition a few years ago, and they were quite pretty also, with much sharper corners than on my LaMay, which are a little rounded. So I guess I can be attracted to both, depending on the individual bow....

dchan · #5 10-23-2009, 12:34 PM

I think the "octaganol vs. round" comes down to the stiffness of the bow. From an engineering POV, it makes sense - the moments are greatest at the top and bottom surfaces of the stick, so the extra wood from the octagonal face serves to increase the moment capacity of the bow. Think of an I-Beam - it's built in that shape because the maximum moments are concentrated at the top and bottom areas.

As Brent mentioned, all bows are carved into an octagonal shape initially. If the bowmaker feels the bow wood needs to be stiffer, then he/she keeps the octagonal shape preserve the stiffness. If the bow wood is stiff enough or too stiff, then he/she turns it into a round shape in order to make it more flexible. It's really this balance of flexibility and stiffness that's in play here.

I remember that former member, Ken Smith, said he initially ordered his mid-grade Chinese bows in a round shape initially, but decided to order them as hexagonal shapes in the future because they needed to be stiffer. I ordered one for a friend, and I thought it was one of the stiffest bows ever. It didn't play as well as my bow on my bass, but it played fantastically on my friend's bass. It just goes to show how important matching your bow to your bass is.

Brent Nussey · #6 10-23-2009, 08:03 PM

This is true, but I think it would be wrong to think of an octagonal bow as inherently stiffer than a round one, and let that influence your buying decision.

Basically, round or octagonal is a decision that's made during the making of the bow to reach the goal the maker/manufacturer is trying to get at. The choice of wood affects this more than anything else, and it seems good makers are able to carve the bow with either round or octagonal shape in mind from the outset, and only change their idea if the wood surprises them. For me, to say "I want a round bow, because it'll be more flexible," is like saying " I want my bass graduated to 7mm at the sound post area, because it'll sound deeper." That's a maker's decision, based on the qualities of the given piece of wood and tonal goals.

It makes sense to me that if Ken was having bows made in China and they were coming back too flexible, he might try asking them not to round them. Are his bows really hexagonal? I wonder what the carving process is then...

Anyway, I guess my point was that you can't judge the stiffness or flexiblilty (or other qualities) of a given bow by it's shape, so unless you have a strong aesthetic desire for an octagonal or round bow, it's best just to close your eyes and play.

Brent

dchan · #7 10-23-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Nussey

This is true, but I think it would be wrong to think of an octagonal bow as inherently stiffer than a round one, and let that influence your buying decision.

Basically, round or octagonal is a decision that's made during the making of the bow to reach the goal the maker/manufacturer is trying to get at. The choice of wood affects this more than anything else, and it seems good makers are able to carve the bow with either round or octagonal shape in mind from the outset, and only change their idea if the wood surprises them. For me, to say "I want a round bow, because it'll be more flexible," is like saying " I want my bass graduated to 7mm at the sound post area, because it'll sound deeper." That's a maker's decision, based on the qualities of the given piece of wood and tonal goals.

It makes sense to me that if Ken was having bows made in China and they were coming back too flexible, he might try asking them not to round them. Are his bows really hexagonal? I wonder what the carving process is then...

Anyway, I guess my point was that you can't judge the stiffness or flexiblilty (or other qualities) of a given bow by it's shape, so unless you have a strong aesthetic desire for an octagonal or round bow, it's best just to close your eyes and play.

Brent

That was actually not my point at all, and I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I think we're on the same page here - the bowmaker decides if the balance of stiffness and flexibility, and he/she shapes the bow according to how stiff/flexible the bow wood turns out to be at the octagonal stage. You, as the player, decide which bow to buy based on how well the bow plays, your own playing preferences, and the sound the bow puts out (the player creates the sound, of course, but the bow along with the bass plays a big role as well).

My point was that it wasn't simply aesthetics that dictated "octagonal vs. round". However, that's for the bowmaker to decide.

As for Ken's bow, I don't remember if it was hexagonal or octagonal. I think this stemmed from the conversation we had at his forum, and the word hexagonal popped up somehow. I actually think his bows are regular octagonal bows. He said that my friend's bow was made from the same higher-quality wood stock that was used to make his upper-grade Chinese bows, so that's probably what contributed to its stiffness.

Brent Nussey · #8 10-23-2009, 08:52 PM

I think we are on the same page. I guess I just didn't want to get too into it about the maker's decisions because they don't change the buying decision, so I didn't want to overcomplicate it. But we really have no disagreement it seems.

Re-reading the original post, I realize also that he didn't say what his price range was, what his shopping process was going to be, not much at all. For me, I grew up before the internet, when all bows, basses etc were always bought by going to see them, trying them out, and making a decision that way. So naturally, I answered his question from that point of view. I have to admit, I'm totally at a loss if someone's trying to buy online. Maybe more "educated guesses" are involved. If the original poster would chime in about how he's planning to do his shopping, it seems like you might have some relevant experience to offer.

Larry Ames · #9 11-02-2009, 07:08 PM

Gentlemen, thank you for your input. This discussion has been most enlightening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Nussey

Re-reading the original post, I realize also that he didn't say what his price range was, what his shopping process was going to be, not much at all.

I apologize for not being more thorough in my original post. I was basically just asking about the relative physical properties of the two types of stick, which you all addressed admirably.

Brent, to answer your question: I'm looking in the $750 - $1200 range. Not a master bow, but not a student bow either. I detest shopping for a bow online. I would much prefer to do so in person, with my own bass. Unfortunately, I live in a small town in Northern California, with a three hour drive to any city of size, so I am stuck with buying sight-unseen on a trial basis, with a return policy, try the bow for a week and if I don't like it, return for refund. Shipping costs back and forth can add up, but what are you going to do when you live in the sticks?

The bow I'm trying now is a pernambuco round stick (German) made in China by Jenghon Sheng. The wood is supposedly 20 years old, and Mr. Sheng is presented as a master bow maker. When I received the bow, I was initially pleased with it. It is very light (134 grams) and well balanced. Sadly, on closer inspection, I discovered that the frog was damaged underneath the retaining ring. I sent the bow back to the seller (Woodnote Music in South El Monte CA), who agreed to have the frog replaced, and sent me another bow to use in the meantime.

Again, thanks to everyone who responded to my question. I have learned a lot from this discussion.

Brent Nussey · #10 11-03-2009, 01:43 AM

Hi Larry.

I feel for you. I wasn't trying to say it's bad to buy online per se, just that if that was the process, dchan probably would have better advice for you than I. You have to buy using whatever process works.

If the bow you're trying right now ends up not working out, Lemur music has had a system for years where you describe what you're looking for, and they choose and send you several bows in a big strong tube, you try them out and send back the ones you don't want to buy. Gives you a chance to check out several bows at once and compare options, maybe it's better than one at a time, I'm not sure. I think they need a credit card number for the process....

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/le...epartments/16/

I had a peek, and some of the Seifert bows they have seem like they'd be in your price range. They may have others, including used ones, that aren't listed on line.

Good luck,
Brent