Role of the fingers

[Rob Sleeper]

Hi everyone,

From the time I started playing, I have always played french bow(for about 6-7years). Just this past summer, I finally made the switch to German bow. I have always been really interested in it and because of the Berlin Philharmonic (my fav orchestra). I have had a couple lessons with various teachers around the Chicago area and I am amazed how much more sound I can produce, especially on the E string. Also to me, German bow feels incredibly more natural. So my question is what is the role of the fingers on the right hand when holding the bow?

Thanks everyone.

[CPike]

You'll get different answers to this, as there is no absolute role of each finger involved. From my perspective, as a player and teacher, the fingers (and wrist) basically function as shock absorbers between your arm and the stick. They allow the stick to receive the weight of the arm and focus it into the strings, at the same time providing delicate small motions for articulation and tone variations. Individually, the fingers do have certain control roles in bowing with a German bow. The thumb does most of the work in transferring arm weight into the string, and controlling articulation. The index finger doesn't do much at all with my grip style, but other styles have this finger on top of the stick assisting the thumb. The middle finger is used to control the angle of the hair relative to the strings - keeping the tip of the bow from drooping toward the floor. The ring finger, not much of a role - but you need to be careful not to use it to grip the frog as this creates too much tension in the hand. The pinky can be used to help control the angle of the hair as it contacts the string - but again you must be cautious that the pinky doesn't exert too much pressure on the frog to negate or destabilize the arm weight transfer.

I'm sure others will chime in with different perspectives - try some and see what works for you. Of course, if you have a teacher, be sure to involve him/her in this discovery process.

Chris

[MDEbass]

In my opinion, the fingers have absolutely no role. They are just there along for the ride. The thumb is the only one that matters, as it transfers the weight of the shoulder and arm into the bow. Nobody will disagree that your right hand should be totally relaxed, no matter what bow you play. I have realized that a big cause for not relaxing the hand, or at least it was in my case, was that my fingers were actually doing something. Especially for loud passages, I realized my fingers would start to press into the bow, starting to actually grip it. This should not be the case. Paul Ellison helped me out with this. He said he hates the phrase "bow grip," as it refers to gripping it tightly. He prefers "bow hold" instead, as the bow should just be kind of....there. A good demonstration he showed me was he held his bow in his hand, and asked me to take it from him. When i took the bow out of his hand, there was absolutely no resistance. He said this is how your right hand should be.

[Bill Bentgen]

I agree with CPike, disagree with MDEbass. But . . . different strokes.

For me the thumb and first two fingers touch the stick very similar to holding a pencil. Like Andy Anderson talks about for French bow, there are a series of springs consisting of the arm, the wrist, the fingers, the stick, the hair, and the string, and they all interact. The exact preciseness of the attack of the bow is controlled by the thumb and two fingers. The more precise, delicate, and quieter the aritculation, like the 8 16ths followed by a quarter in the opening bars of Beethoven 7, it's almost all fingers and thumb.

Depending on the stroke, the actual work moves to the wrist or the shoulder. I practice spiccato with my elbow held against my side. For fortissimo whole notes, it comes from the shoulder. But like I said, different strokes. . .

[CPike]

Mods, perhaps this thread should be moved to the technique section?

I've always had a conceptual problem with the absolute idea that the fingers would be "totally" relaxed. Taken to the extreme, if this were the case then there would be little control over the angles of the bow relative to the string. Obviously, the term "grip" can give one ideas of holding the bow too tightly, so it should be avoided. I believe a balance of tension and relaxation should be striven for - not too tight as to restrict the flexibility, but not too loose as to lose control.

Chris

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by MDEbass

...The thumb is the only one that matters, as it transfers the weight of the shoulder and arm into the bow...your right hand should be totally relaxed, no matter what bow you play.

What do you think about the "Streicher grip", MDEb?

When I'm working with my German bow, I like to do that. It seems to help me get my bow a little more perpendicular to the strings.

But then I do the Laborie thing too and that puts my bridge lower down.

[MDEbass]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

What do you think about the "Streicher grip", MDEb?

When I'm working with my German bow, I like to do that. It seems to help me get my bow a little more perpendicular to the strings.

But then I do the Laborie thing too and that puts my bridge lower down.

Well with the Streicher hold, if I'm not mistaken, you index finger and middle(?) fingers go on top of the stick? So in that case, those fingers would take the role of the thumb, as the means of transferring the weight of the shoulder and arm. Good point. I guess with the wide range of the way that the bow can be held, the fingers may have a different role in one way than if it were held in a different way, if any.

Also, another point to clarify, without a doubt, the hand should be relaxed. With the french bow, the fingers may have a role. When I said that the fingers shouldnt have a role at all, I was talking about the traditional german hold.

[bejoyous]

Funny, in my german bow grip I try not to involve the thumb at all with no force being applied to the string. Rather, I try to transfer the weight of my arm and back through my fingers.

I hold the stick like I hold a pencil. The top of the frog is in the crease just below the index finger and the bottom of the frog is in the little dip at the top of the palm between the ring and little finger. The pinky is flat on the bottom of the frog and the ring finger is floating over the hole of the frog.

There is a triangle of support between where the stick is between my thumb and index, where my index and middle finger touch the stick and where the bow touches the string.

I can lift my pinky and thumb off the stick and frog with no effect on the sound. (Well, the pinky and the thumb do keep the stick from rotating if the bow comes off the string.)

[MDEbass]

Originally Posted by bejoyous

Funny, in my german bow grip I try not to involve the thumb at all with no force being applied to the string. Rather, I try to transfer the weight of my arm and back through my fingers.

I hold the stick like I hold a pencil. The top of the frog is in the crease just below the index finger and the bottom of the frog is in the little dip at the top of the palm between the ring and little finger. The pinky is flat on the bottom of the frog and the ring finger is floating over the hole of the frog.

There is a triangle of support between where the stick is between my thumb and index, where my index and middle finger touch the stick and where the bow touches the string.

I can lift my pinky and thumb off the stick and frog with no effect on the sound. (Well, the pinky and the thumb do keep the stick from rotating if the bow comes off the string.)

Very interesting. I guess our bow holds are exact opposites because i can take all my other fingers off the frog except my thumb without affecting the sound. Now that I think about it, for off the string bowing, my pinkie, on the bottom of the frog, does contribte a little stability to keep the bow from flying around, but I don't apply any pressure with my pinkie, I just hold it there. Its interesting how we're getting such different answers on not only how people hold the bow, but the mechanics of which finger does what.

[bejoyous]

Robert Oppelt, principal of the National Symphony, has a really interesting section on his website showing the various ways of holding the German bow. When I go to his site, the link doesn't work though. Maybe it will in the future.

[bejoyous]

Here's a video of me playing Bottesini's Elegy, you can see my thumb lift off the stick occasionally (most noticeable at 4:05).

[MDEbass]

Originally Posted by bejoyous

Robert Oppelt, principal of the National Symphony, has a really interesting section on his website showing the various ways of holding the German bow. When I go to his site, the link doesn't work though. Maybe it will in the future.

Very cool resource. After looking at all the different German bow holds that he mentions, I would say my hold most closely resembles #11, the last one. I started out learning probably something that looks like #9, but the tense bent wrist started to hurt my wrist and screwed up the angle of my bowing. So at Tanglewood, Todd Seeber changed my grip to probably something that resembles #10, which was definately and improvement. So now after Paul Ellison changed me to #11, it seems like it works, as its just about in between #9 and #10.

Originally Posted by bejoyous

Here's a video of me playing Bottesini's Elegy, you can see my thumb lift off the stick occasionally (most noticeable at 4:05).

Very interesting. Yeah I definately noticed your thumb come totally off the stick. Nice playing!

[LouisF]

Go here:

http://www.wikihow.com/Hold-a-German...e-Upright-Bass


(Okay-okay-okay - calm down - just kidding!!)

Louis

[Rob Sleeper]

Thanx everyone for your imput. Yeah my grip is more of a traditional grip where my thumb transfers all the power from my arm and shoulder to the bow. I don't really like the (Streicher Hold), after awhile of playing FF my index and middle finger start to hurt.

I was wondering if you guys can answer one more question for me. I know that the pinky finger should be curved and touching the bottom of the frog. But sometimes when I play excerpts where the music's dynamic is piano and all your playing is an 8th note followed by an 8th rest for a quite a few measures or playing piano whole notes in the music at a slow tempo, my pinky sometimes gets fatigued. Does everyone just let pinky finger lay flat and sit parallel to the frog?

Thanx again.

[CPike]

Originally Posted by bejoyous

Robert Oppelt, principal of the National Symphony, has a really interesting section on his website showing the various ways of holding the German bow. When I go to his site, the link doesn't work though. Maybe it will in the future.

http://www.robertoppelt.com/page8.html (link was broken but I dug it out of the html code...)

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by MDEbass

Well with the Streicher hold, if I'm not mistaken, you index finger and middle(?) fingers go on top of the stick?

I'm no expert, but for me I have the index on top and the middle under the stick. My thumb sort of just "drapes over" the stick. My own goal is just to allow the wrist to bend less in order to bring the bow tip up.

I do on occasion use my thumb on top as you do, and I agree completely that the hand should be relaxed to offer optimum "coupling".

I work with the French bow some also, and the index finger more or less drives the bow...with the thumb just helping to hold the bow and the hand relaxed. Yes the hand is positioned differently on the bow but there seem to be a lot of shared key points that I didn't think about much before getting involved in this discussion.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by CPike

http://www.robertoppelt.com/page8.html (link was broken but I dug it out of the html code...)

Thanks for this, CP. Good stuff to think about and experiment with.

[LouisF]

Thanks for doing that!

LF