Shoulder pains

[bopeuph]

Well, it's getting late, so I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote on Tubenet (tuba forum).

Read on. Let me know of any insight.

In the last few weeks, my right shoulder has started giving me quite a bit of pain. It's not debilitating in any way, it's more of a here-and-gone pain, that feels like growing pains. I'm the kind that's all for playing through the pain, but it hasn't gone away, and that's a bad thing.

I'm a bit of a practice fiend. I will go upwards of 10-12 hours of playing an instrument (usually euph or upright bass, but can also include trombone or electric). The pain seems a little more present while playing my euph, but that doesn't make much sense. I've been playing my horn the same way, with the same good posture and relaxed approach for at least the last 7-8 years.

I'm a jazz bassist, but I recently started studying classically and joined the community college orchestra with the intent of improving my bowing chops and my intonation. I'm guessing that's where the pain could be coming from, but it doesn't really hurt while I'm playing (come to think of it, I don't feel pain while I play ANY instrument). The pain shows up after I put the instruments down, so it's hard to pinpoint the problem.

Any thoughts?

Nick

[Eric Hochberg]

If you want bigger problems than you have now, play through the pain and keep practicing 10-12 hours a day. Our bodies can only take so much. If this started happening when you went into orchestra playing, better check your bowing technique, maybe you are doing something wrong and are stressing out muscles in your shoulder. You really need to figure this out before it gets worse to the point where you can't play. I've been there and it ain't pretty.

Buy "Playing Less Hurt" by Janet Horvath for good insights into musicians injuries. And stop putting that many hours in, your body is telling you something!

[bopeuph]

I should make a clarification:

I don't practice the same instrument all day, and that includes rehearsals. I have to schedule practice before and after rehearsals, so I'm essentially playing an instrument all day. Usually ends up to be WITH rehearsals, about six hours on the euphonium, and three to four hours on bass. The rehearsals are a bit lenghthy.

Some days, like Tuesday, I brought along my electric bass because I had a large gap between my 1:30 bass lesson and the 7:30 orchestra rehearsal. I practiced euph about three to four hours, practiced very little on the upright, and worked on some stuff on electric. Besides my hard hitting morning shed on the euph, I usually change up instruments on a regular basis to relax from whatever I was practicing.

I usually stand while playing. But because Orchestra is almost two hours straight without a break, my right leg gets tired too because about 80-90% of my weight is kept on it. I'm putting serious thought into buying a stool today. I'm going to take a the weekend away from the bow, and re-evaluate my technique next week; hopefully the pain will be gone by then. I just called my teacher, and he gave me some good pointers. He's going to pay extra close attention to my shoulder next week.

Nick

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by bopeuph

I should make a clarification:
I usually stand while playing. But because Orchestra is almost two hours straight without a break, my right leg gets tired too because about 80-90% of my weight is kept on it. I'm putting serious thought into buying a stool today.
Nick

Try to get out of the static stance you seem to be in with most of the weight on your right leg. Move around a bit while playing and resting, take the weight off of one leg and try to distribute it to the other. Stools have problems off their own, due to the static posture they tend to put you in, people develop back problems and leg pain using them. Alternating between standing and sitting could be good if you don't have to change your endpin height. Stay in a "fluid" mode as opposed to a static position and you'll have an easier time of it.

[DocBop]

I've been having some shoulder discomfort and getting it to start to go away. I walk a lot for exercise so I started carrying some small dumbbells with me while I walk. Nothing heavy just enough for resistance. I will do various lifts, curls, and other movements. Nothing drastic and not for building strength but to help increase flexibility and it seems to be working. Also since carrying the dumbbells for an hour at time my fingers appear to be stronger and no more hand cramps during bowing practice.

Also noticed sometime the pain would come after playing and sitting. I spotting I was letting my shoulders droop down. So I start holding my arm up a little bit as if in a sling instead of letting the weight of my arm pull down the shoulder, that seem to make the discomfort stop and shoulder go back to feeling normal.

That's what's working for me. DB is much more of a physical instrument than I ever imagined it would be.

[bopeuph]

I got a stool. My teacher uses one sawed down and holds the bass between his legs like a cello. He props his left foot up with a classical guitar footstool. I tried this, and it's really very comfortable, especially since I played cello for almost ten years when I was younger. I don't need to saw down the stool, I'm tall enough. I can't wait to start practicing with the stool, but I need to take my break. The weights are a good idea. I need to get back to working my joints out again.

Members of Tubenet mentioned I should contact Deborah Vogel, a dance physical therapist who is commonly called to help musicians. I sent her a message. I wonder how that will pan out.

There was another possibility for the injury I thought of. Where I'm studying right now is a much further walk from the parking lot to the school and no loading dock. I have my backpack on my back, with my euph in the Protec case strapped to my left shoulder. The bass is held my my left hand vertically. Sometimes it has the Real Book in the bag, adding a few pounds. I'm not sure this is the case, since everything is held my my left side. I've backpacked across Europe and through many cities in the US with the backpack being heavier and my horn without a problem. The only difference is I had a large bag of clothes strapped to my right shoulder. Instead of that, I have a double bass, which is held on my left side. So I don't know about that.

Nick

[EJ_Dad]

I had the same problem for about 14 months.
My new teacher said I was using too much pressure when playing with the bow.
I was raising my right elbow and right shoulder using muscle pressure.

She got me to relax my right shoulder and arm by hanging it from my fingertips. Just let the weight of your relaxed arm apply pressure and draw the sound out of the string from the forward movement of the bow.

I use a music stand to get the same feeling of hanging my arm from the finger tips.

You will not get the same volume of sound from a bass as a euphonium. I was a tuba player.

The sound should not sound forced. She also showed me how to get a little more volume by raising the tip slightly on an up bow and dropping it slightly on a down bow. This allows the forward motion of the bow to apply a little more presure on the string.

[bopeuph]

Thanks for the help, guys.

I haven't picked up my bow since Wednesday, and have been just transcribing some Ray Brown and brushing up on tune knowledge. The shoulder pain is slowly going away. I have bought a stool and adopted the sitting approach. I don't know why I didn't do this before--it's all around easier! Notes are better in tune, thumb position isn't as difficult to get to, and I'm more comfortable, not to mention my posture is MUCH better. Now I have to invest in a cushion for the stool, and a footstool for my left foot. I have been using a box while at home, and it's actually very comfortable. I can't wait to try the bow out again, but not until the pain is more gone.

Nick

[accutone]

You sound like a young guy and from the sound of it, you are plenty strong.
Consider stretching rather than weight lifting, the later of which tends to tighten muscles. If you take even a basic yoga class (or look at a basic book) you will find a bunch of stretches that you can do when you take breaks in your practicing. You don't have to be able to put your leg behind your head, just simple stuff will help, but don't over do it!

Most importantly as others have said and you seem to have taken to heart, don't simply play through the pain. This is a hard pill to swallow when you are young, but if you are having as much pain as you describe at a young age, trust us when we say you will be in trouble when you get a little older. On the other hand, you will be fine if you take the time now to work this issue out. Good luck.

[bopeuph]

Actually, I have done quite a bit of Wing Chun in my past. My work out is going to be the Qi Gong exercises I know, along with the weapon sets to stretch out and strengthen my arms.

[accutone]

Great! Good luck.

[shostkontrabass]

Stretch and take breaks! Your muscles need to time to rebuild/recuperate while you are playing. I would say a minimum of 10 minutes every hour of practicing. And also stretch whenever you get a break in rehearsal. I've been in situations where I've had to play for 12 or so hours a day, and I don't know how I could've gotten through if I didn't take brakes to limber up my muscles.

I'm a strong believer of the fact that shorter, structured, and focused practice sessions are better than long, drawn out ones. If I go in with specific goals for that session and work for around 3-4 hours, I can get what needs doing done. It just seems that after anything more than around 5 hours I would just be beating it into the ground, per se; just practicing for the sake of practicing, wearing myself out and not actually improving. This may not be the case with you, and you did say that you play several instruments. However, I think everything needs moderation. Maybe if you put in a lot of work on bass one day, go easy on the tuba and euphonium, then the next day go hard on tuba and go easy on the others, et cetera.

Overall, my advice is to 1) stretch. If you are short on good stretches, a great way to learn some is Janet Horvath's Playing (Less) Hurt, which is an injury prevention guide for musicians (I have said this before, but I still believe that every musician needs a copy of this book). 2) stay relaxed and move whenever possible. Take time in rehearsals to just let your arms hang at your sides when not playing, move around in your seat, roll your neck and shoulders, et cetera. 3) try to keep your practice sessions focused and not overly long, which I talked about above.

Oh, also, if pain persists, consider looking into acupuncture. Some people will deny that it is a real form of treatment for any number of reasons, but believe me, it works wonders! It essentially prevented me from developing tendinitis.

Good luck!

[bopeuph]

I took that much needed break; the only bowing I've done since last Wednesday is yesterday in rehearsal. I decided to use the time to transcribe some Ray Brown. I couldn't believe how much my classical studies have improved me!

I also bought a stool. I didn't believe it, but makes sense: sitting makes things easier! I feel more relaxed, and thumb position is in an easier reach. I sit with a much better posture than I stand with a bass, probably because of what's involved in standing.

Individual practice on each instrument never really amounts to more than 3-4 hours a day. But, after including rehearsal, it can double easily. Then add transcribing, listening, and writing/arranging, and you have a whole day affair.

Nick

[EJ_Dad]

Originally Posted by EJ_Dad

She also showed me how to get a little more volume by raising the tip slightly on an up bow and dropping it slightly on a down bow. This allows the forward motion of the bow to apply a little more presure on the string.

This is not a preceise explanation of the technique. When playing a note on the D string down bow, the bow hair is closer to the G string than the A string. Up bow, the bow hair is closer to the A string than the G string.

On the other plane, the bow remains perpendicular to the string.

[bopeuph]

Actually, after this week of examining everything I'm doing, I think it's my euphonium that is the problem. I took a few months break off of it at the beginning of the year, and my left arm got a little weaker. That's the arm that holds the instrument. I subconsciously compensated by holding more weight with my right hand because I'm right handed. The weight is held up by nothing else but my thumb. That caused my shoulder to raise. Hence the pain. It seems more likely. Now I have to practice my holding all over again.

This couldn't have come at a worse time, either. Competition season is just right around the corner, as is grad school auditions.

Nick

[goodgig]

Hi Nick,

If your in pain now, I hate to think what the long term implications are. (Carpel Tunnel almost ended playing both double bass and trombone for me).

I'm also a brass/bass doubler, so I sympathize with your plight. Necessity if the mother if invention. I was wondering if you could borrow one of those neck straps from a sax playing friend and see if you can attach it somehow to the euphonium to free up your thumb.

[goodgig]

Sorry - Too many "ifs" in my last post - where is the grammer check on this site?

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by goodgig

Hi Nick,

If your in pain now, I hate to think what the long term implications are. (Carpel Tunnel almost ended playing both double bass and trombone for me).

I'm also a brass/bass doubler, so I sympathize with your plight. Necessity if the mother if invention. I was wondering if you could borrow one of those neck straps from a sax playing friend and see if you can attach it somehow to the euphonium to free up your thumb.

I did think about that, but what I'm doing now is taking my thumb off the bar by the valves to make sure all the weight is on my left arm, where it should be. It's hurting my dexterity in my right hand, but this shouldn't last for more than a few weeks. I am doing this during rehearsals and daily routine sheds, where it won't hurt my hardcore practice.

The pain is more of a tired muscle, like I just lifted weights for the first time in a while. I don't think it's all too serious...now. It does show that I'm doing something wrong and I need to fix it now. The pain is very distant; it's nowhere near bad enough to resort to pain meds.

Nick