What came first

Rob Sleeper · #1 09-21-2006, 07:51 PM

Hey everyone,

Ever since the double bass came into picture, what bow came into play first, french bow or german bow?

Thanks

JoeyNaeger · #2 09-21-2006, 07:58 PM

The underhand gripped bow was used to play intruments in the viola de gamba family and is what was used on bass first.

Silversorcerer · #3 09-22-2006, 01:00 AM

The French bow was later used by Orchestra folks who didn't know any better.

Stingrayz · #4 09-22-2006, 05:02 AM

The chicken ?

Snakewood · #5 09-22-2006, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

The French bow was later used by Orchestra folks who didn't know any better.

Slowly but surely apes transformed into men and likely the transition from german to french was made.

KSB - Ken Smith · #6 09-22-2006, 08:45 AM

Not sure but since 'Tone' is more important than 'noise' The French Bass Bow was developed to sweeten up the low end under the Cellos.

GriffithLea · #7 09-22-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

The French bow was later used by Orchestra folks who didn't know any better.

What a giveaway. That's what I'm talkin' about. Did you see him repressin' me?

From what I understand (okay, you've had your warning), early bows didn't have a mechanism for holding the hair tight - you had to use pressure on top of the stick with your thumb to hold the stick against the frog, and a curling action with the fingers to place tension on the hair.

Speaking of bows, a year or two ago I saw a really weird bow. I was at the Houston Symphony's first performance of the Lord of the Rings Symphony, and the gent standing in the principal spot had a bow with a German-style frog, which was not too abnormal

but the stick was; it was bent the other way, i.e. the hair was farthest from the stick in the middle rather than at the frog. I've not seen one like that before or since.

I'm pretty sure that he hadn't simply overtightened his bow.

sibass89 · #8 09-22-2006, 01:02 PM

Is it possible he was using a classical bow? Classical bows bend the other way and you tighten the hair a different way. Classical bows look more like an arch and the screw doesn't turn it pushes and pulls.

PaulCannon · #9 09-22-2006, 10:33 PM

Tim Pitts is generally sitting Principal, and as a teacher at Rice he would have access to Paul Ellison's collection of early and period bows. Paul's had me use one of his late baroque bows to see what playing Bach should feel like.

I wouldn't know why Tim would be using a period bow for LotR, though. Probably thought it looked cool.

mcnaire2004 · #10 09-22-2006, 10:40 PM

It's my understanding that early bass bows were crude Germans. In the picture of Dragonetti (the only pic I know of) he has his bow and it is a elongated rainbow shape with a 4 inch looking stick at the end. It wasn't till later that the French was popular for bassist. People like Bottesini (who was one of the first popular bassist to ever use a french) showed the world the grace of the french. Not to say that German is bad (ive used one). But, I think the French has more potential.

Silversorcerer · #11 09-23-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibass89

Is it possible he was using a classical bow? Classical bows bend the other way and you tighten the hair a different way. Classical bows look more like an arch and the screw doesn't turn it pushes and pulls.

Sounds like you mean a "broke" bow. I've seen these broke bows and they curve wrong as well as being broke. If I can get my knuckles off the carpet I'll see if I can find a pitcher of Dragonetti's bow.

Stingrayz · #12 09-23-2006, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

It's my understanding that early bass bows were crude Germans. In the picture of Dragonetti (the only pic I know of) he has his bow and it is a elongated rainbow shape with a 4 inch looking stick at the end. It wasn't till later that the French was popular for bassist. People like Bottesini (who was one of the first popular bassist to ever use a french) showed the world the grace of the french. Not to say that German is bad (ive used one). But, I think the French has more potential.

Its all down to preference, i dont think you can say that one bow has more potential than the other.

Silversorcerer · #13 09-23-2006, 02:32 PM

Yo, Sting! That's a different thread. This is about history and that other thread is still active.

So, a little while after players got tired of using these broke bows bent wrong, a French watchmaker lost track of the time during the Classical and Romantic periods (which just seemed to go on and on and on like a bad opera) and contourted the bows again, hoping to introduce a new musical period by bending them the other way and this plague eventually spread to the underhanded broke bows also about the time Napoleon invaded Vienna. Nowadays we don't call these contourted bows, we just shortened it to Tourte-style bow, but the French plague never spread to the frogs of some double bassits who were persistently underhanded.

Stan Haskins · #14 09-23-2006, 03:39 PM

I used to have a bow bent the wrong way - not nearly as severe as those contorted bows in the earlier pictures, just bowed out a bit, with a giant frog, very heavy and inflexible. The guy I bought it from said it was a "church bow". The guys at Boston Strings laughed and laughed when I brought it in along with my old plywood bass . . . about 15 years ago . . . I can still hear them now . . .

Silversorcerer · #15 09-23-2006, 06:35 PM

Coming a while after conTourte and not wanting to be outdone by a watchmaker, Vuillaume (that's French for Vuillaume) started making hollow metal bows (I think he would have loved CF if it had been available). Well not even the French would fall for a metal bow for very long.

So how about that church bow? Have any idea when it was made or by whom? I know whom is credited with making some bows, but whether or not whom made yours, Stan, you didn't say?

GriffithLea · #16 09-25-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

Tim Pitts is generally sitting Principal, and as a teacher at Rice he would have access to Paul Ellison's collection of early and period bows. Paul's had me use one of his late baroque bows to see what playing Bach should feel like.

I wouldn't know why Tim would be using a period bow for LotR, though. Probably thought it looked cool.

As I remember the fellow stood to play, looked fairly young, was slim, and had the shaved head and goatee look going. His bass had a Stenholm C extension setup.

Anyway, probably the bow was chosen for the look - to match the old-world feel of LotR .

GriffithLea · #17 09-25-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Sounds like you mean a "broke" bow. I've seen these broke bows and they curve wrong as well as being broke. If I can get my knuckles off the carpet I'll see if I can find a pitcher of Dragonetti's bow.

It was more like the color picture that you attached, i.e. with the German-type frog.

bejoyous · #18 09-25-2006, 05:19 PM

Here's a link to a photo of a Dragonetti-type bow.

Here's the blurb: Very rare- made circa 1790-1810. High arch. Excellent old Snakewood. Gold ferrule on frog. Early style with no pearl slide. We have restored the original high German style ebony frog. This bow came with an old Italian Bass that we have already sold. $1400.

It's in Stratford, Ontario.

http://www.riedstrasviolinshop.com/D...ttiBassBow.JPG

Silversorcerer · #19 09-25-2006, 07:17 PM

I believe the drawing I posted was done from the photo of Dragonetti that was mentioned earlier and this has a totally different type of frog. It looks more like an early coping saw with a tool handle more than a frog. The color photo was of a bow very similar to the "Dragonetti - style" bow bejoyous posted the better photo of. I think I borrowed that photo from a violin shop somewhere. The Dragonnetti-style bows to me are just early baroquish (is that a word/) baroquen? bows with German frogs. I've never seen an actual bow that looks like that drawing. That one is tuly strange and archaic looking, if in fact the drawing is anywhere nearly accurate.