Why all the french?

[lloccmttocs]

So I went on this amazing orchestra trip this weekend and saw two shows one was the Curtis Orchestra, One was the Philidelphia Philharmonic (I think). But thats not the odd part. what seemed odd to me was in both orchestras all the bass players played french bow. Is there something I don't know. Because in my bigger sized orchestra most of them play German like I started on with the exception of the new bassist who plays french but thats still 4 german and 1 french. Both orchestras were all french, thats about 14 bassists. Is it a cawincidence?

[MonetBass]

Most likely. What players use is largely dependent on what their teachers use, or in my case, which bows were available. When I started in the 5th grade, I was handed a French bow; therefore, that's what I use. And I didn't encounter a German bow user until college (two of them).

[anonymous12251111]

Philadelphia has had a long history with the French bow. Started mainly by Italian immigrants in the early 1900's, Anton Torello; a student of Pedro Valls (Spanish School) joined the Philadelphia Orchestra as Principal and as the instructor of the Curtis Institute. At the time the French bow was still asserting its self in orchestra's and the Italian/Philadelphian tradition became notorious with the overhand hold. Roger Scott, pupil of Torello became an instructor at Curtis and an unofficial policy was announced that they only accepted French bow players. One of his students was Tom Monohan whom later became Principal of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra; another city with close ties to Philadelphian tradition. The majority of Orchestra's in NE America followed Philadelphia, different schools emerged according to emigration from Europe to America. Today we find ourself amerced in both schools of bow. The majority of grade school students are taught French bow because generic string/band teachers want consistency within the string family.

[lloccmttocs]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Philadelphia has had a long history with the French bow. Started mainly by Italian immigrants in the early 1900's, Anton Torello; a student of Pedro Valls (Spanish School) joined the Philadelphia Orchestra as Principal and as the instructor of the Curtis Institute. At the time the French bow was still asserting its self in orchestra's and the Italian/Philadelphian tradition became notorious with the overhand hold. Roger Scott, pupil of Torello became an instructor at Curtis and an unofficial policy was announced that they only accepted French bow players. One of his students was Tom Monohan whom later became Principal of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra; another city with close ties to Philadelphian tradition. The majority of Orchestra's in NE America followed Philadelphia, different schools emerged according to emigration from Europe to America. Today we find ourself amerced in both schools of bow. The majority of grade school students are taught French bow because generic string/band teachers want consistency within the string family.

Wow that is very interesting. Are there places where German bow is more prevalent? I always was more facinated by German because it feels more... traditional for bass simply because it is older and I wanted to distinguise my bows from my brothers (he used to play violin) but does that mean that if I wanted to try out for New England Major orchestras in the future (since I live in New England) I would have to learn French bow or have these traditions dimmed down in most places?

[anonymous12251111]

In North America the German bow is just as used as the French. There is no real bias within orchestral auditions, all you have to focus on is playing to your best ability.

German bow is expected within Germany and Austria as all orchestra's within these countries only play German bow unless you're an immigrant. If you win a major orchestra audition within these countries using French bow you would be expected to switch within a certain amount of time.

Like most orchestra's, the conductor wants unity but it more so comes down to individual preference. In Germany/Austria they would want you to play the Dittersdorf Concerto the way they play it. They play very differently to that of those in the U.S, mainly because we might have 6-8 bassists in a section whereas they will usually have 8-12+.

I have no real knowledge of New England traditions, even if I did, it's irrelevant. There are German bow players in Curtis just as there are French bow players in Austria, all it comes down to is your playin! If you love German, play German and don't look back!

PS: There were overhand bows in the baroque viol period as well. Many period orchestra musicians are comfortable on both bows.

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by lloccmttocs

So I went on this amazing orchestra trip this weekend and saw two shows one was the Curtis Orchestra, One was the Philidelphia Philharmonic (I think). But thats not the odd part. what seemed odd to me was in both orchestras all the bass players played french bow. Is there something I don't know. Because in my bigger sized orchestra most of them play German like I started on with the exception of the new bassist who plays french but thats still 4 german and 1 french. Both orchestras were all french, thats about 14 bassists. Is it a cawincidence?

Maybe you should get out more.

[lloccmttocs]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

Maybe you should get out more.

Gosh, getting out? are you crazy?

[Pete G]

I understand that the Chicago Symphony was almost the "anti-Philadelphia" in terms of bass bows for the first half of the 20th century, and a few years beyond that. The long-time principal was a Simandl student and not only played German, he expected all other bassists to play German. My teacher told me that several "closet" French bow players switched to French after the principal retired.

Then French bow player Joe Guastafeste was appointed principal by Fritz Reiner in 1961 (he's still there), and CSO bassists were allowed to pick their bow of choice.

[Cory Palmer]

I've noticed that the sound that different bass sections get is usually more natural on one bow or the other. The way Philadelphia plays is very natural on French bow. I play german bow and have been studying with a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra for the past two years. Whenever I pick up a french bow it helps me understand where he is coming from and it feels very natural to get the sound that he is talking about. I've had a few lessons with members of the New York Philharmonic which is mostly if not all german bow players. The sound they the get feels more natural on german bow. The Boston Symphony is about half and half and I there style isn't particular to either bow.

Most orchestras tend to be dominated by one or the other type of bow.

[jdapodaca]

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

I've noticed that the sound that different bass sections get is usually more natural on one bow or the other. The way Philadelphia plays is very natural on French bow. I play german bow and have been studying with a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra for the past two years. Whenever I pick up a french bow it helps me understand where he is coming from and it feels very natural to get the sound that he is talking about. I've had a few lessons with members of the New York Philharmonic which is mostly if not all german bow players. The sound they the get feels more natural on german bow. The Boston Symphony is about half and half and I there style isn't particular to either bow.

Most orchestras tend to be dominated by one or the other type of bow.

Cory, how much french bow technique do you study with John Hood? Do you feel at all at either an advantage or disadvantage studying with a teacher who plays French bow? Sort of an open-ended question and might divert the thread, but I'm curious.

[Cory Palmer]

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

Cory, how much french bow technique do you study with John Hood? Do you feel at all at either an advantage or disadvantage studying with a teacher who plays French bow? Sort of an open-ended question and might divert the thread, but I'm curious.

I studied very little french bow with John. The only work that we did on french bow was when I bought a french bow a few months ago and had him show me some of the basics of his approach to the french bow. Before I bought a french bow I would play a french bow every once and while and some of the things that John was trying to get me to do would make more sense. Like the Beethoven 5 Trio stroke. I can't do it very well on french bow but I understand what the stroke should feel like better when I play on a french bow then go back to german bow.

I had a very solid foundation on german bow before I got to Peabody. So John didn't have to do much german bow specific technique work with me. I'm pretty sure all the technique work we did could be applied to both bows. John plays a lot of german bow too. He's a hell of a player on either bow.

It's been great to learn how to play german bow from a french bow perspective. My playing has gotten a lot fuller.

I'll be studying with a german bow teacher again in the fall. It should be interesting to see if it makes much of a difference to be studying with a german bow teacher again.