Amp tone great, house tone 'boomy'... Fix?

[Lucky Strike]

I play at a pretty big sized church and I'm running a 2x10 cab and a Markbass LMII and am getting great tone out of my rig. I use the rig as my own monitor pointed at me and run XLR into the house out of the amp's direct out. Alot of times people from the audience say the bass lacks definition, that they can hear the bass but not all the notes they see me playing. Boomy or muddy tone is what seems to come through the house.

I run a pretty flat EQ with 10% boost on the bass just to warm it up. Seems to happen with my Nordy, Sukop, SB5000...

Any ideas on what causes this? How might it be solved?

Thanks..

[stflbn]

DI out historically can be low end focused and lack some definition. Often it helps to add a mic'd cabinet to the mix also. Or... the person mixing the performance 'should' hear and fix the muddy boomy bass. Could be that they're actually mixing it that way and think it's best that way.

Polite conversations and tutoring of the people mixing can go a long way. Without making it confrontational, invite them to hear what your cab sounds like where you're at, and challenge them to recreate that tone out front.

[stingraysvt]

I have recently started using the HPF (High pass filter) on bass, ALOT, a couple weeks ago I had a bass player who had so much low frequency info coming to me I had the Variable HPF set to 200hz!!! but it sounded rich, full, and amazing!

As a bass player myself I was astonished, but it cleaned all the boominess up without any additional eq, you may not need to run up to 200hz but 100-150 is pretty normal, it'll clean up all your low end issues.

[lunarpollen]

The fix that is needed has nothing to do with you or your amp. It's the person running the house system that needs to be fixed...

[littlepope]

Equalisation. Level check. If you are boomy at a certain freq, then lower that freq a bit if you have a 1/3 octave equalizer handy. Be aware of what type of room you are playing in. Is it wide open with drapes, curtains, shiny floors, wooden furniture, L-shape room, elevated stages, theatre seating??

One way to isolate whether the problem is use a line out (preferalby XLR line) to house mixer or amplification and see what it sounds like. Do not plug your amp speakers in. You are trying to understand what is being fed to the house mix.

Some amps have a pre and\or post eq switch or preamp switch depending on model. This determines if you send pure signal or tone altered signal to mixing board. With some amps your effects send can be used (at preamp level around -4 db) to get into mixing board.

Do take a look at compression and limiters if any is in the chain of amplification.

are your pickups at a nominal even level relative to the string height? There is info out on that subject.

Lastly-record the whole show or event to see what or how the boominess sounds, how the bass sits in the mix, balance of instruments. By doing so you may uncover feedback points which are not always high pitched. Ever hear of stage rumble??

This is from my (old heads) experiences in bands and doing sound for my own after I quit.

later player-D.J.

[stingraysvt]

Also on your end make sure you are sending as flat of a signal to FOH as possible, if you have active electronics, run the bass flat and set your DI on your head to PRE EQ and use the Markbass to compensate the low end you want to hear onstage

[stingraysvt]

and like the above thread says too, It might not all be your fault. The house rig probably needs to be tuned, and the sound guy really could clean up the booming frequency issue if he (could)wanted to

[jaywa]

There's a lot I could say on this subject -- from years of experience playing bass in church settings -- but I'll leave it at this:

Don't depend on the sound guy to fix anything. There's a very good chance he's incapable of fixing it, or doesn't care enough to fix it, or is being told by a higher-up not to fix it, or all of the above.

You're gonna have to do the best you can to clean up your sound at the source, and hope for the best. Even if that means not having the killer tone onstage.

[stingraysvt]

Originally Posted by jaywa

There's a lot I could say on this subject -- from years of experience playing bass in church settings -- but I'll leave it at this:

Don't depend on the sound guy to fix anything. There's a very good chance he's incapable of fixing it, or doesn't care enough to fix it, or both.

You're gonna have to do the best you can to clean up your sound at the source, and hope for the best. Even if that means not having the killer tone onstage.

I think you could have a killer tone onstage, just remember to give him as flat of a tone as possible, maybe even less low end to balance out and compensate with your personal tone on your amp

[MNAirHead]

As a church veteran I'll comment thatthere are a lot of wild guesses that are lacking good info. You havent noted if you're flying mains and or acoustic treatments to the room.

I don't want to offend anyone but have zero confidence in your prior replies. Most church issues begin with pa installation. Architecture. And speaker placement. It then moves to a committee not paying to have the room rta'd

[Lucky Strike]

Thanks for the replies, I think I see what type of variables I'm dealing with.

I run through an Aviom and use in-ear monitors. The problem with the in-ears is that when I try to bring down the lower freqs via amp and bass EQ's, I have to deal with disgusting tinny tone in my ears. Hearing your tone like this changes the way I hear myself and ultimately how comfortable I am and how I play..

This Sunday I forgot to plug in my speaker cab cable and heard just the bass in the house during sound check and it sounded like it really needed to be cleaned up EQ wise and maybe compressed a little.

The other thing that might not be helping is the fact that the worship leader has his guitar with a very 'full' sound. He turns up the 'Low' on his amp to get a really fat sound. Other guitarists have commented on how he's got a little too much bass in his mix..

[MNAirHead]

What you're describing is why I'm suggesting the replies above are only hunches and opinions.

Who knows if your room is boomy... who knows if the EQ is set right... who knows if your mains are engineered for vocals... who knows if you're running subs.. who knows if your sound team fiddles with EQ... heck we don't even know if your PA is a permanent mount.

Sorry to be the kill joy on this thread --- there are way too many variables to start issuing fixes.

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I'm a worship leader... (in charge of all audible noise)... I've obsessed over this topic (while playing my room and/or others)

The reality is that churches are notorious for getting committies to budget a hodgepodge of mismated gear... then not installing it correctly.. and then not paying tenured pros to either run it or train on it... then add that most soundgear get dorked with by well intending folks honestly dorking it more.

Heck I've know rooms I've tried 30+ basses and 20+ amps to find the solution that works best for the environment.

=====

Start with the basics.. how boomy is the "naked room" and what hz points should it be set for.

Start with the basics... get the vocals and key chord instrument clean.. then work outward...

Think of it as studio sound and not rock band production...

My guess is that you have WAY bigger challenges than "my tone"... my other guess is that what I'm writing may be confusing to you.

[brimm51]

i play with aLOT of mids in my bass, to give my self a very defined bass tone, i cant really tell you how to EQ your rig, how big is the house PA for this venue?

[MNAirHead]

better yet.. how is the PA mounted or isn't it.

[seanm]

I believe the LM2 does not have a pre-eq DI? If so, get a DI and put it in front of the amp. Then it is out of your hands and up to the sound guy.

[Lucky Strike]

I'll try the DI before running into the markbass thing.

I have no idea about what type of PA the house is running and whether or not it is mounted... I know they do have subs though.

[MNAirHead]

OPINION/TEST

Get permission to turn off/unplug the subs... very few church environments have them setup correctly or have acoustics that can handle them.... this could solve part of your issue -- or not


Next step is to see where/how the mains are mounted... commonly they'll "fly" them above... this may/maynot be good for bass... commonly this is super limited to your clarity and boominess

-------

Without knowing about the PA it's kind of silly that folks are suggesting how to create a good sound.

Heck -- you could be in the Crystal Cathedral for all we know. (glass box to the most of you)

----

OPINION 2 - put others first.
If you really care.. start with a wireless... go to mid room and ensure that vocals and the primary chord instrument (normally keys or acoustic guitar) can be clearly heard.... worry about this first.


Tim

[MNAirHead]

Dumb question..

Who on your worship team are paid professionals?

How good is the Worship leader at production?

Is your Worship leader more of a musician or clergy?

Are the "sound crew" volunteers or trained professionals?

Tim

[MNAirHead]

Other test....

Walk in the middle of the room...

Clap loudly... bang a pot & pan... hit a big wooden box... make silly noises.... heck set your amp mid room... and run a wireless and go back to the other end... better yet put your amp directly under the mains and run wireless to your complainer's seat

then listen to how the room reacts...

[BogeyBass]

Corners are the problems for bass.

Match that with a high ceiling and corners that are somewhat close for the amount of sound your pumping into the room.

Corners can make bass boom like crazy 6 to 9dB louder, can be somewhat fixed 2 ways. Their is a good 24 or 32 band EQ on the main pa and some big cuts have to be made by ear to cut the boom. Or you get cheap drapes or huge low cost painters drop cloths and hang them nicely in the corners, to make a nice looking low cost bass trap.

Otherwise until that gets changed you need to get a clean Direct to the board or possibly use you own EQ on that direct line to make your mains mix sound correct. Boost the mids and cut the lows. I used a Boss GEB-7 before the DI Box and could fix my main EQ wherever i played.

Most people wont admit that they approach their EQ the same way. And sometimes what your use to dialing in real quick. Wont work in certain rooms. You have to EQ to the room, not what your usual habit tells you too.