B & E strings lost in the mix...

Tieiririyi · #1 06-26-2011, 05:03 PM

I just had two church gigs the past weekend. We are a five piece band with one drum, one guitar, a piano, a synthesizer and my bass. I'm using TC electronic rh450's DI to connect to the PA system without using any cabs(short of cash

). Everyone else was also mic'ed or directly fed into the system. My sound was ok when I was by myself. But both my low B and E strings were lost in the live mix when the whole band kicked in. My higher strings were heard perfectly. They tried to turn my volume up but my higher strings would overwhelmed everything else. The two churches had different accoustic properties two, one was concrete and the other one was brick wall plus wooden ceiling.

I think adding a 2x10 cab could help the problem but is there any other solution for this? Can this be fixed by EQ?

Thanks a lot for the help!

allexcosta · #2 06-26-2011, 05:28 PM

String type and gauges?
How old?
Bass?
Pickup height?
Professionally setup?

Churches are problematic by themselves. You could have some serious frequency canceling on both environments. Same happens in your room? In rehearsal studios?

Most times new strings and a fresh setup should fix the problem...

Tieiririyi · #3 06-26-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

String type and gauges?
How old?
Bass?
Pickup height?
Professionally setup?

Churches are problematic by themselves. You could have some serious frequency canceling on both environments. Same happens in your room? In rehearsal studios?

Most times new strings and a fresh setup should fix the problem...

I'm using a Lakland 55-01 with mk1 soapbar pickup.
Strings are DR lo-rider 45-65-85-105-130, about 3 months old. There are no problems when we rehearse in a small room.

Do you guys put on new strings for every gig?

allexcosta · #4 06-28-2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tieiririyi

There are no problems when we rehearse in a small room.

Well, in that case it's some kind of weird acoustic phenomena (comb filtering and such) and those are hard to diagnose and fix from a distance...

Try moving things around, maybe a mat underneath your cabs or go to the other side of the stage. Something like that...

georgestrings · #5 06-29-2011, 05:47 AM

Odds are that the synth is causing your problems...

- georgestrings

staindbass · #6 06-29-2011, 07:12 AM

i dont think the pa is strong enuf to reproduce those strings AND the rest of the band at the same time. thats why it sounds ok when you play alone.

Brad Johnson · #7 07-04-2011, 12:52 PM

Sounds like a garden variety bad mix/setup. When you say you sounded "ok" alone, was that good or just passable? Did the B and E sound full when you were alone? Were you competing with the kick drum? Did you have your amp setup towards strong mids or leaning towards another direction? How was your channel setup on the board? Does the soundperson know what they're doing?

Lots of possibilities... those are the first that come to mind. The fact that when they turned you up and the highs were overwhelming is a very common issue if you have your tone adjusted towards a lower volume type setting IME. Here's what I would do:

Barring any weirdness as far as tonal settings at the PA I'd set the TC as close to a relatively flat sound as I could ( edit: or just go through a direct box), I'd do the same at my bass if it's active and I'd bring the gains up at the board and see where I stood at that point. Then at volume I'd make whatever tonal tweaks I deemed necessary. IME tweaks tend to be far less drastic at higher live volumes than at lower ones.

As far as this not happening rehearsing in a smaller room, that's not at all surprising. Are you using the same PA there too? Are the setting the same?

Tieiririyi · #8 07-06-2011, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Sounds like a garden variety bad mix/setup. When you say you sounded "ok" alone, was that good or just passable? Did the B and E sound full when you were alone? Were you competing with the kick drum? Did you have your amp setup towards strong mids or leaning towards another direction? How was your channel setup on the board? Does the soundperson know what they're doing?

Lots of possibilities... those are the first that come to mind. The fact that when they turned you up and the highs were overwhelming is a very common issue if you have your tone adjusted towards a lower volume type setting IME. Here's what I would do:

Barring any weirdness as far as tonal settings at the PA I'd set the TC as close to a relatively flat sound as I could (just go through a direct box), I'd do the same at my bass if it's active and I'd bring the gains up at the board and see where I stood at that point. Then at volume I'd make whatever tonal tweaks I deemed necessary. IME tweaks tend to be far less drastic at higher live volumes than at lower ones.

As far as this not happening rehearsing in a smaller room, that's not at all surprising. Are you using the same PA there too? Are the setting the same?

We do have a JBL SRX700 series sub so I think we have enough power.

I was listening to recording and it seems like I was actually competing with the kick drum. I did set my amp toward strong mids, but the kick drum seems to get a lot of mids too. I guess I have to work with the sound man on this. Thanks for the tweaks tips, I will try it next time. The sound man has been doing this for a while, but he's an amateur, I doubt he knows all these tweaks...

Brad Johnson · #9 07-07-2011, 01:35 AM

That's a nice sub series. My main soundpersons uses a complement of them and if you don't know what you're doing it's not hard to obsure the low end of the bass with the kick drum.

Good luck... looking forward to seeing if any of this helps.

steveksux · #10 07-07-2011, 04:42 PM

Good advice so far, something is masking your lower freqs.

Keyboard's left hand or bass drum are the most likely culprits.

Bass drum can't sustain notes though, so I'd bet its the keyboard left hand overpowering you. Try bolt cutters on his left pinky. If that doesn't help, adjust and try additional fingers as needed.

Randy

Doctor Dirt · #11 07-07-2011, 05:49 PM

Your Low B & E are not showing up because the P/A can't reproduce the lows. When the other instruments join in it really gets lost. You need your stage set up to reinforce the live sound or just use a 4 string and keep it simple. 'To have a great kick drum and reproduce a B & E combo you need real gear thats happy below 80 on the crossover, and thats were that big bad low end 18eens come in. Your not gonna get the real deal with an 18 a side, it'll be ok but not kickin. Doc

Brad Johnson · #12 07-08-2011, 09:29 AM

While that is a possibility, an SRX700 series sub set appropriately and driven with sufficient power shouldn't be the problem. I've soundchecked with a single 18 with no issues and gigged with four and plenty of headroom and sounded like crap. More often than not its the nut(s) behind the wheel(s) IME of course.

Just curious... which part of his PA do you consider to be the problem?

Stumbo · #13 07-08-2011, 12:21 PM

If you're using more than one sub, they need to be stacked/grouped. Check out the graphs showing comb filtering when stacked/unstacked: Sub stage placement w plots/graphs

Also, turn the bass tone down on the piano and synth. Each needs their own sonic space. None of the keys players need to play 10 finger chords. There are many threads on TB about the problems with this. Here's a sticky on the topic: How to work together with keys? (or synths?... or organs?)

Your bass may have too many upper mids. +1 on getting your bass pro setup or just using a 4 string.

I also suggest a recording be made from the board the really hear what's coming out of it vs. the venue. It it's not balanced by instrument, no way the FOH is.

All this should be able to be solved by a good sound check, especially using the parts of the songs where the lowend of your bass drops out. Possibly having the drums and bass play, then drums/keys/bass, then drums/synth/bass, then drums/keys/synth/bass and so on until the source of the problem is located.

Or how about borrowing a bass rig for one Sunday and mic'ing it?