Balance pb: is miking guitars a good idea?

[LaBaleine]

The guys in my band are thinking about buying some mikes for the 2 guitars to run them into the PA. This is following our last gig where our balance was quite bad (some people could only hear the lead guitar...). Both guitarists have small-ish amps (30W, solid-state), and they play them almost cranked-up. Just to complete the picture I have a 180W combo, which I play comfortably at about 50%.

I'm also wondering whether it may be worth running the bass into the PA, through the DI output of my amp head.

We play small-ish venues (100 people) for the moment, so I'm not sure this will solve our balance issue.

Any ideas/comments/suggestions?

PS: we are all quite new to this...

[IanStephenson]

We do this in a similar situation. The guitar amps are plenty loud enough to fill the venue, but getting the balance right is tricky. We let the amps carry the bulk of the work (we're playing small venues so don't need more volume), but mic the cabs, and run just a little through the PA to give better spread. It also gives you more control.

Ian

[ric1312]

Ya, you want to mic the guitars for balance. Will, also allow you to get the stage volume down.

For bass it's not needed as much as it's my understanding that bass waves are different then the frequencies guitars put out and not as directional. So, in a hundred person max spot, which is probably decent size but small, the bass will be heard just fine in the mix without it being miced.

Also if you have your cab closer to the back wall the room will couple some what and act as your bass cab. Best thing to do is set up early at a venue and see what sounds best out front.

[Rattman]

Well... I don't know about 'micing' the guitars over using a actual DI interface, but as the other posters pointed out: going thru the PA for a better 'spread' does make sense. And anytime you have an opportunity to lower stage volume, do it.. you can at least try it out... it may grow on you.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Rattman

Well... I don't know about 'micing' the guitars over using a actual DI interface

As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.

[DocBop]

Only use DI on acoustic guitars live or DI with mic' in the studio to give clarity to an overly cranked amp.

Live, small amps mic'ed are great. Guitarist can get their sound at reasonable level and volume for everyone on stage is comfortable to play and can do more with dynamics. Let the PA do what they are designed for.

[Rattman]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.

I dunno Jim... I've NEVER been allowed to mic any of my guitar amps when wearing the guitar hat.. the singers insist I do the DI thing while allowing the guitar amp to barely produce any sound at all.. Seems thats how it works in alot of churches anyway.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Rattman

I dunno Jim... I've NEVER been allowed to mic any of my guitar amps when wearing the guitar hat.. the singers insist I do the DI thing while allowing the guitar amp to barely produce any sound at all.. Seems thats how it works in alot of churches anyway.

Singers are often extremely egotistical and don't care about anyone sounding good but them. I think if a guitarist is forced to DI, it just shows that they don't care about the band sounding as good as they can be. There's a reason the vast majority of guitarists mic their amps.

[69nites]

if someone asked me to DI my guitar rig I would look very confused.

guitarists don't DI with good reason. a LOT of the tone of a guitar amp comes from the speakers and emulation isn't going to cut it.

the only time I've ever DI'd a guitar is for an extreme clean tone.

[scootron]

The tone of the individual guitar doesn't count...it is how it sounds in the mix.

I have had to prove this to our guitar players over and over again. The absolute best sound we have (as a unit) is when we DI everything and trust the sound man. The "tone" one loses from running through the cabinet speakers is negligible in the mix.

On our ast two gigs, we actually turned our cabs off and relied upon the monitors exclusively for stage volume. We were the tightest we had ever been, and the audience raved about how they could hear every instrument better than ever before. Of course, we have a really good sound person who knows our material and knows when to bring this guy or that guy up for a solo, etc.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by scootron

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.

Wow, you really think you'll get flamed for a post that insults everyone who doesn't do things your way? Now who would do that?

Not everyone has your particular tonal goals in mind, and not everyone is clueless how to make the sound of a mic'ed cabinet sound good in a mix. I'm not going to flame you, but I AM going to point out that your statement was a pretty insulting and myopic thing to say.

[69nites]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Wow, you really think you'll get flamed for a post that insults everyone who doesn't do things your way? Now who would do that?

Not everyone has your particular tonal goals in mind, and not everyone is clueless how to make the sound of a mic'ed cabinet sound good in a mix. I'm not going to flame you, but I AM going to point out that your statement was a pretty insulting and myopic thing to say.

not only that but in the case of mic'ing an amp the amp is simply being used as a tool to create the tone and the moniter. The majority of the sound that makes it to the croud goes through the PA.

[amos]

In my experience, the high end from a guitar that goes through the woofers is very directional. Miking the guitar cab allows the hi-end to be dispersed through hi-frequency horns via the PA system so you get much better dispersion of sound. Plus you can keep the stage volume down and avoid blasting the person directly in front of the guitar cab with, well, guitar.

To answer your question, yes.

[LaBaleine]

OK thanks guys for all your answers. I now definitely think it's a good idea
(well as long as the sound guy does his job correctly)

[Stumbo]

There's a guy on eBay selling 160RMS power attenuators that have a line out built in so you can get all the pre-speaker amp sound out to the p.a. I have an 80rms unit(no line out).

It also comes with an speaker ohms switch to match your amp so you can run any cabinet w/o worry about the speaker box ohms (worth the price just for this).

12 step volume adjustment. Works great. Get your tone and then dial in the overall amp volume for the room.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.

Agreed 100%...



- georgestrings

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Singers are often extremely egotistical and don't care about anyone sounding good but them. I think if a guitarist is forced to DI, it just shows that they don't care about the band sounding as good as they can be. There's a reason the vast majority of guitarists mic their amps.

No doubt - I've played tons of gigs as both a bassist and a guitarist, and although I prefer DI for bass, I would flatly refuse to be DI'd for guitar... In fact, I've never had the issue come up during all those guitarist gigs....



-georgestrings

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by 69nites

if someone asked me to DI my guitar rig I would look very confused.

guitarists don't DI with good reason. a LOT of the tone of a guitar amp comes from the speakers and emulation isn't going to cut it.

the only time I've ever DI'd a guitar is for an extreme clean tone.

Spot on...



- georgestrings

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by scootron

The tone of the individual guitar doesn't count...it is how it sounds in the mix.

I have had to prove this to our guitar players over and over again. The absolute best sound we have (as a unit) is when we DI everything and trust the sound man. The "tone" one loses from running through the cabinet speakers is negligible in the mix.

On our ast two gigs, we actually turned our cabs off and relied upon the monitors exclusively for stage volume. We were the tightest we had ever been, and the audience raved about how they could hear every instrument better than ever before. Of course, we have a really good sound person who knows our material and knows when to bring this guy or that guy up for a solo, etc.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.

If you've been around live stage acts for any length of time, you'd know it's almost unheard of for guitarists to DI(unless they're modeling) - that's not a matter of being uncooperative or egotistical - it's simply that nothing sounds the same as a tube amp through a speaker for guitar...



- georgestrings

[Juniorkimbrough]

I like mic'ing the guitars just for the sake of being able to have some in my monitor especially when the guitar player is on the other side of the drums.