Band Perfomance tips for good live sound (hopeful sticky)

[mambo4]

Band Performance tips for good live sound

I started a thread about this elsewhere a few months ago, can't find it now. I'm hoping for good enough advice to merit "sticky" status.

We all know the sound man and the PA are the crucial final link in achieving a great live sound, Most of the threads here relate to this fact.However, I have noticed over the years that even with the same PA/sound guy, relatively equivalent gear, and relatively equal technical skill, some bands just sound better live than others: Band A will be muddy and indistinct, while band B will be clear,each instrument cuts in the mix, lyrics are intelligible, everything is nice and balanced -just plain better sound

We as musicians and performers are the FIRST link in the chain of good live sound, and some bands clearly are
doing something more as musicians and as a band to sound good live. Things that do not depend on gear, things
that you can practice as a band at rehearsals.

I think that there are a lot of things to keep in mind that are not as obvious as simply playing your parts correctly. So what are some things these great live bands do, to help achieve a good live sound?

Would love to hear from the older pros and especially bassists who have also been sound guys. Even serious suggestions about what NOT to do could help.

[mambo4]

Just to start off , here's what I recall form the old thread:

-PRACTICE SOLO
Knowing your parts as well as possible should go without saying. Practice your parts at home with the metronome, and when you get together as a band, rehearse as a band. Common advice around TB.

- DYNAMICS
Great live bands really pay attention to dynamics. Everybody knows when the sound needs to go from loud to soft, and plays with appropriate energy. A subtle point about dynamics is that it can be more than just volume. A pro drummer I once played with was trying to explain that you should be able to play with more intensity without speeding up or playing louder. I'm still struggling with that point!

-RELATIVE INSTRUMENT VOLUME kind of a subset of dynamics, but such a common failing it bears mention. As I've heard it described best: The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?" The goal is to have everybody heard clearly at the lowest volume required for your desired tone...and generally everybody needs to fall behind the vocals. Where you find out how skilled your drummer really is

- EQ SPECTRUM
In the interest of having everybody heard clearly, we must recognize that each instrument needs its own "space" in the eq spectrum, and tweak your knobs accordingly.
For me, I always think of the 200-500 hz low mids as being the "bass" zone...More detailed info about where standard instruments sit in the EQ spectrum would be appreciated!

[Deacon_Blues]

A few more tips:

- Know how to use the EQ and what kind of sound suits the mix the best. An instrument might sound incredible on it's own eq'd in a certain way, but mixed in a band setting it might sound terrible. (This relates to the EQ spectrum paragraph in mambo's post). E.g. a bass-heavy, mid-scooped guitar often works incredibly bad in a live setting.

- Everyone doesn't have to play at all times. Works wonders with the dynamics if someone can shut up once in a while.. And yes, dynamics is not just volume, it's FAR more than that. Just hard to explain in words what it is. I know it when I hear it, kind of...

- For most of the non-instrumental music you hear, the rule is that vocals come first and must always be heard. That's what the audience focus on. And no, you don't have to boost the treble on the vocals, boost the volume instead so it cuts through. And cut the bass if you can't hear the words clearly. This has to do with mic technique. If you sing with you lips touching the grill of the mic, you easily get a bass-heavy sound. One inch away gives a more natural sound (but I know it's incredibly difficult to follow this if you don't hear yourself very loudly in the monitors).

- if you don't have a soundman, it's good to ask for input about the FOH sound from certain people in the audience that you know well.

- If you soundcheck all instruments so they sound great and powerful in the PA, you are very likely to play way too loud when you all play together and you have to change the mix...

Just my two cents.

[JmJ]

Good ideas above. My choice of bass amps never seem to have a good 'throw'. To project in the room better I had to get used to being one louder than I feel it should be onstage. According to the sound folks & people whose ears I trusted it seemed to work.

[mambo4]

on the Idea of dynamics beyond simple volume, here's some lecture notes I took:

10 ways of building musical intensity
from Rob Bowman's analysis of Otis Redding’s recording of "Try a Little Tenderness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bowman_(music_writer)

1. Volume- loudness increases.
2. Density -number of parts playing at once.
3. Tempo -speed up.
4. Rhythmic activity - eg: side-stick quarter notes to full drum beat.
5. Timbre -same parts but new instruments/ effects.
6. "playful voicedness" -vibrato, pitch slide, improvised lyics "oh yeah" "you know I gotta tell ya"
7. Pitch - same parts up third/ fifth/ octave. New parts w/higher pitches.
8. Harmonic content - fewer chords to more chords, simple chords to extended.
9. Harmonic Rhythm - rate at which new chords come.
10. Linguistic Sense to sonic sense - abandoning lyrics for pure vocal expression.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by mambo4

on the Idea of dynamics beyond simple volume, here's some lecture notes I took:

10 ways of building musical intensity
from Rob Bowman's analysis of Otis Redding’s recording of "Try a Little Tenderness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bowman_(music_writer)

1. Volume- loudness increases.
2. Density -number of parts playing at once.
3. Tempo -speed up.
4. Rhythmic activity - eg: side-stick quarter notes to full drum beat.
5. Timbre -same parts but new instruments/ effects.
6. "playful voicedness" -vibrato, pitch slide, improvised lyics "oh yeah" "you know I gotta tell ya"
7. Pitch - same parts up third/ fifth/ octave. New parts w/higher pitches.
8. Harmonic content - fewer chords to more chords, simple chords to extended.
9. Harmonic Rhythm - rate at which new chords come.
10. Linguistic Sense to sonic sense - abandoning lyrics for pure vocal expression.

Interesting, I agree on all points. But I don't know how practical point 3 is if you also want to take down the intensity. It's harder to slow down than it is to speed up...

[Kimpini]

The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?"



YES I completly agree

[dave_bass5]

Originally Posted by Kimpini

The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?"



YES I completly agree

Unless the old master has a 10watt combo and your playing to 300 people with only a vocal PA

[ric1312]

1. Bring your own sound and no how to set it.
2. Or, 2 tip the sound guy up front and hope he's not a dick.


My alternative was to have my band go all bose L1 for small to mid sized gigs. Our sound is always great now. For large places we just run line outs and know at least the stage sound is great and hope the FOH guy does a good job.

I've always had the best experience with live sound when I brought my own P.A. regardless of type of PA. The only places you can't really do this are big venues.

I've found that house sound always has some sort of problem. I've had nothing but bad experience with house sound and house sound guys. In over 17 years of playing out I think I can count a grand total of 3 times where I used house sound and was happy with it and someone in the audience didn't complain about something.

[Standalone]

Give the loudest guy in the band the loudest monitor mix, with a lot of him in it.

[landwomble]

Develop the skill of working out what's causing the problem with the sound, and the ability to fix it on the fly: e.g. is that feedback because your guitarist won't turn down, or because the vocal mic is pointed at the drum wedge? Get it clear with the engineer what you want in the FOH and the foldback mix early on. Be nice to them. Buy them a beer as you tell them how many DI's you need.
Be able to think on your feet: generally from past experience it's the bassist who's the guy who can solder dodgy guitar cables etc and one other string you should have is live soundcraft. Know your way around a mixer!

[Winemule]

The key to successful live sound: A drummer who doesn't pound.

[Dave R]

if you don't have a soundman, it's good to ask for input about the FOH sound from certain people in the audience that you know well.

I will add: IT DOESN'T SOUND THE SAME ONSTAGE AS IS DOES IN THE AUDIENCE.

You need to have some faith in whoever is giving you input from the audience. If you sound too soft to yourself on stage, and the the sound guy (or you buddy or whever) tells you its perfect on the floor, then turn up your monitor, or just balance that soft sound.

[kalle74]

1. keep your stage-volume in check
2. know what you´re doing (playing-wise). includes all the knowledge on dynamics and such...
3. know your equipment, and kill all extraneous noise it might create
4. hire a good engineer
5. don´t book gigs in places that have catastrophic acoustics

[dave_bass5]

I got a wireless system so i could wander around the room at sound check as we do all our own sound from the stage.
I tend to EQ for the room rather than on stage now.

[Silaxian]

Originally Posted by Winemule

The key to successful live sound: A drummer who doesn't pound.

+1

Been in that sad situation many, many times. Drummer thinks he is the Hulk. Drummer angry, Drummer SMASH!

[JohnnyFive]

If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

[VisualShock]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFive

If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

You need to find what you want in EQing. Most of all, experiment. if you have a spare 5 minutes in soundcheck, ask the sound tech, or someone else in your band with a long lead to go stand FOH while you play around, play a chorus, see how it sounds, ask your guy FOH how it sounds, make adjustments, and then repeat until you get what you want.

[dave_bass5]

Originally Posted by Silaxian

+1

Been in that sad situation many, many times. Drummer thinks he is the Hulk. Drummer angry, Drummer SMASH!

...and one who doesn't think its a race to finish the song first.

[fokof]

Nothing to add. All very excelent suggestions.
+100000000 for the stage volume.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFive

If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

It depends on the type of music a lot.
Is it electro , metal , jazz or rock ?
All these style have different low end approach.
In general, the bass share the low end with the kick , the floor tom , the synth , piano , trombone/tuba/sousaphone , etc...

In metal , the kick has no low end , only attack ( because of 1/4 notes at 300BPM ) so the bass has all the place in the low end with the guitar.
In jazz , it's more "what you hear acousticaly , is what you (should) get"
In rock , the kick moves the air ( lower frequencies) the bass is on top of that. But you have to approach it differently if you don't have the subs or the PA to do that.......