Bass cab for kick drum

seanm · #1 09-18-2011, 08:52 PM

Has anybody tried using a bass cab for the kick drum? I was thinking of micing the kick drum into a preamp to poweramp into a bass cab. Maybe throw in a HPF for some protection.

I know we should get a subwoofer, but that costs money and I already have all the equipment for the bass cab route (well, except the HPF which I could make).

But I figure a bass cab would be better than nothing? This probably isn't something I am going to do anytime soon, just thinking out loud.

Also, anybody know the general range of frequencies for a bass drum? I realize it depends on the drum and the tuning, but just a rough idea?

T-Bird · #2 09-18-2011, 10:33 PM

Hi.

IME/IMHO, forget it.

Unless we're talking about amplifying a 18" club kit or similar, You're looking at about 1000W and "very" sensitive cab to make a difference.

Since You're going to try it, IME with budget gear and with very limited low end reproduction, cutting everything below 50 Hz and above 500Hz and boosting the 100Hz region can make the BD to stand out. It can also blow the cab in a sec., so be careful.

Regards
Sam

walterw · #3 09-18-2011, 10:35 PM

so you want a "kick drum amp", to supplement what is otherwise a stage volume setup?

a typical 15+horn PA box with a PA mixer head sitting on top of it would be fine to get it up a little on stage.

(this is absolutely a shoestring idea; pro systems use actual monitors, often a monitor with a powered sub underneath.)

Ben Clarke · #4 09-18-2011, 10:46 PM

I've done it with a Hughes & Kettner BK300 1x15 combo and Subkick. It worked fine to put some kick out into the crowd. We were outside w/ an inadequate PA that would only take vocals. Nice thing about the Subkick is that it doesn't require a pre and sounds good w/ little EQ. The nice thing about the H&K amp for this is the built in compression. You will definitely get better results with some compression on the signal.

seanm · #5 09-18-2011, 11:18 PM

I think I will just forget the idea. I just feel the band would sound better if we could get a bit more kick out into the audience. The rest of the kit is too loud, but the kick seems to lose out (maybe just in comparison?).

It would also be nice to have a subwoofer and put some bass through the FOH. Depending on the room, the bass amp can be higher volume then I like on stage.

But I don't want to put any more money into the PA unless we start getting a *lot* more gigs. And even then, I might get a better mixer first. We may need a subwoofer, but I want a mixer

T-Bird · #6 09-19-2011, 12:02 AM

Hi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

I just feel the band would sound better if we could get a bit more kick out into the audience. The rest of the kit is too loud, but the kick seems to lose out (maybe just in comparison?).

In that case, it sounds like a drum problem rather than an amplification problem to me. A feather-foot drummer can't be helped without PA support, obviously, but if he/she has a "normal" kick action, then a bigger/better shell or even just new skin(s) is all that it takes to remedy the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

And even then, I might get a better mixer first. We may need a subwoofer, but I want a mixer

IME, the mixer is always more important than a sub (within' reason obviously) when the overall performance of the PA is concerned.

Regards
Sam

Ben Clarke · #7 09-19-2011, 12:14 AM

just rent a sub from L&M when you need it. A compact sub would likely do the trick and would be cheap to rent overnight.

ga_edwards · #8 09-19-2011, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

I think I will just forget the idea. I just feel the band would sound better if we could get a bit more kick out into the audience. The rest of the kit is too loud, but the kick seems to lose out (maybe just in comparison?).

This is more common than you might realise. We stick a mic in front of the kick and put it through the PA (15" cabs with horns), just to give it a little more presence. You don't need a lot of low end TBH, - personally I can't stand the current trend of boomy low end kick drums - just enough to make it audible, so you hear the attack and matches the rest of the kit. The bass guitar should fill the low end of the spectrum, which if you and the drummer play tight enough together, it creates an aural illusion which makes the kick sound deeper than it really is.

Nev375 · #9 09-19-2011, 03:09 AM

+1 on compression.
Now I've heard of guys that have ran a kick drum mike right into their own bass rig alongside their bass signal. I'd guess you would need a little 2 channel mixer or maybe just a small mic pre like an Art MP or something plus maybe an ABY box.

Have I ever done it? no.
Seen it done? no.
Willing to try it if I were in your shoes? yes, but I would keep a close eye on levels and proceed with caution.
Did I mention a compressor? I wouldn't think about it without one.

oerk · #10 09-19-2011, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

This is more common than you might realise. We stick a mic in front of the kick and put it through the PA (15" cabs with horns), just to give it a little more presence. You don't need a lot of low end TBH, - personally I can't stand the current trend of boomy low end kick drums - just enough to make it audible, so you hear the attack and matches the rest of the kit. The bass guitar should fill the low end of the spectrum, which if you and the drummer play tight enough together, it creates an aural illusion which makes the kick sound deeper than it really is.

+1

The bass amp idea might work for smaller venues, but I wouldn't attempt it without a deep voiced cab that can handle decent amounts of power. Amplifying the attack through your PA tops will probably be enough to get it into the audience. Boost around 6-8k (depending on the kick) and watch the lows.

And while you're at it, putting a tiny bit of overhead into the PA works wonders for sound dispersion, IME, even if the cymbals are loud enough. Almost any condenser will work for this.

seanm · #11 09-19-2011, 09:02 PM

Wow, lots of good info.

T-Bird: He doesn't have a feather touch. To be honest, the room I am thinking of was just sucking up all the bass. I had to crank the bass amp much louder than normal and even then it was weaker in the mix than I would have liked. But the stage volume was just getting too high. So probably the kick had the same problem.

Yes, I should have tried some bass through the PA. But I was very busy between sets and just didn't have time. I should *always* run the DI out to the mixer just in case.

Ben: I'm using the one recommending renting to try things.. DOH! It' s a good idea, and I might even try it down the road. Right now I don't want any cash outlay.

Nev375: I am just too nervous about using my bass amp.

But I will probably try putting some kick in the PA. Why not? I can always turn it down if it doesn't work. And I know the drummer has a full set of mics, including a good kick drum mic (can't remember the model off hand).

I would love to put a compressor on the drums, unfortunately, the mixer is very inflexible

Maybe mic => mic pre => compressor => mixer. Or just keep the volume low. Start simple and move up.

TC2112 · #12 09-19-2011, 09:21 PM

even a cheap mixer should have some kind of channel input or effects loop. If it has the former, it will be a single input right on the individual channel and you use a stereo Y cable
(single stereo plug to left and right mono plugs, ring being send and tip being return) to inject compression or if it has a effects loop, you can plug a compressor there and just use the effects control on the channel to turn it up and leave it off whatever channels you don't want it on.

seanm · #13 09-19-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC2112

even a cheap mixer should have some kind of channel input or effects loop. If it has the former, it will be a single input right on the individual channel and you use a stereo Y cable
(single stereo plug to left and right mono plugs, ring being send and tip being return) to inject compression or if it has a effects loop, you can plug a compressor there and just use the effects control on the channel to turn it up and leave it off whatever channels you don't want it on.

One effects loop, that I use for reverb or delay on the vocals

No inserts. So I either leave out the compressor or go with the whole mic pre to compressor to mixer chain.

The mixer does have a built in limiter on the outputs, so any serious peaks would get clamped down on.

You can probably see why I am thinking of getting a new mixer. For practice, I use a little Mackie 802-VLZ3 which is light years ahead of the gig mixer in terms of features. Albeit with much fewer channels.

The mixer is a Yamaha EMX88S. It does the job and is a very compact package. The band is very happy with it. Really for the price and features it provides a solid, very basic unit. I just want it a bit better

walker rosewood · #14 09-20-2011, 01:42 PM

....trying not to sound douchy but... the cheapest/easiest solution I can see is to get some real gigs at a venue with a sound system.

jason poff · #15 09-20-2011, 01:57 PM

What bass amp did you have in mind for this purpose?

Most any would be better than nothing if you truly need some extra oomph.

I wouldn't worry about the compressor if he's a good drummer.

Just have him hit the kick heavily while setting your levels.

If he has an uneven foot, maybe some compression...

seanm · #16 09-20-2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walker rosewood

....trying not to sound douchy but... the cheapest/easiest solution I can see is to get some real gigs at a venue with a sound system.

Because we don't have to pay a soundman, the smaller gigs tend to pay better.

But I do agree with you. I really enjoy gigs that I don't have to worry about sound!