Bass DI to Board sound loss question.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #1 05-04-2011, 07:15 AM

Why is it that the minute I run my bass through the board I loose most of the sound and dynamics that I have worked so hard to get?
I have tried several different DI units and heads with DI and to no fault of thiers my sound gets distant and compressed sounding for lack of a better word when run through the board,I have even run my bass directly in to the board (1/4)and it is the same,just to see how it would sound I unplugged the outputs from the PA to the Amp and plugged my bass directly in to the PA Slave amp and it sounded great.
The best sound I am able to achive is to use the non DI Line level variable output XLR on my SWR Grand Prix or LowEnd Preamp and even then I loose presence and dynamics just not as much.
I am using a 16 channel Allen & Heath board with a Mackie 1400i powering 2 JBL JRX 2x15 mains and a Carvin DCM1500 powering a Genz Benz 18 sub all run through a BBE DS24 Digital crossover.

prd004 · #2 05-04-2011, 07:38 AM

That is because your rig is dialed in and you have fine tuned the sound it produces to suit your ears. Your amp and your speakers are complimenting each other. One of the main reasons I never use the DI off the back of the amp is because all your rigs gain & EQ setteings are dialed in to match what your speaker cab is going to do with it, and it won't be doing the same thing through the PA.

Also some of your PA equip may be suspect. I like the Allen & Heath but the rest of that setup does nothing for me, hate BBE, not a fan of Mackie, and the 2x15 JBL's are my least favorite product of theirs. Also the subs are only going to sound as good as the room they are in and the crossover settings allow. Four fifteens, and two eighteens are a lot of speaker surface, do you really have enough power? What is the crossover frequency at for the subs? Are you using too much sub? Too much sub-sonic frequency?

Spend some time learning to work your sound through the PA. I would buy a dedicated DI, a good one and for the sake of improving your results, turn your amp off and work the board, it will take some time. Make sure the gain settings are correct and practice with the EQ. Most people don't know how to use the EQ to remove bad frequencies, they just turn up the bass and the treble and wonder why it doesn't sound good. Micing your cab is another good option to start with more of your amps spound.

Hellbastard · #3 05-04-2011, 07:41 AM

It's probably because a great part of waht you like in your tone is coming from the cabs and speaker configuartion. So no matter how good the DI is, you'll never get the tone of your rig, unless you mic your cab.
If possible use a combination of both mic and DI, that will give the best results.

Wes Whitmore · #4 05-04-2011, 07:51 AM

I would love to have some more detail on what other equipment and hookup chain you have. Any EQ? Where is the crossover? Any Efx or compression? Are you sending pre or post EQ to the DI?

Troubleshooting: If you have taken your bass amps DI, or an external DI, and unplugged the mixer and efx chain, and plugged right into the crossover input before it splits to the wo amps and mains/subs, and are happy with the sound, then it isn't the PA speakers. I say this because most PA speakers don't sound the same as your stage rig because they usually have a flatter but broader frequency response than commerical bass cabinets. It's just the way it is. You tuned your amp based on what your bass cab sounds like, and that might not sound great in PA speakers. Try messing around with pre and post EQ on the DI and see if you find something that works in the PA.
From there, you need to add each piece of equipment back into the chain one at a time and see if the quality of sound changes. EQ? That might be the problem. If you have worked your way back to the beginning of the chain and all you have left is the mixer, then it's probably the mixer. Check for channel strip EQ, EFX, low freq cutoff, compression, clipping at the channel input, etc. The mixer shouldn't be adding or removing anything to your sound unless you want it to. That's a pretty decent board, so I assume the preamps are pretty clean.
Sorry for the rambling, but the key to finding out what is wrong is usually starting with something that works well, then making one change at a time and sew where it changes.
Wes

prd004 · #5 05-04-2011, 07:51 AM

PS: Double check me on this, because I'm only 75-85% sure and too lazy to do a search right now, plus I gotta go to work in a few minutes but are your JBL's the JRX 100's with the dual 15's? If I recall correctly these have a built in crossover for one of the fifteens so you are essentially getting one full range 15 and a pseudo sub. Combine that with the rest of your PA and you have two full range speakers and four subs, a bad setup! A whole lot of low mud and not nearly enough midrange for your bass to shine.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #6 05-04-2011, 08:04 AM

You are correct in that one of the 15s in each cab is crossed higher to help with the mid I just added a small set of yamaha 12s sitting on top of the 2x15 jbl's and that helped out the vocal/mids clarity issue we were having.
As far as the BBE crossover points I believe I have the mains are set at 50hz high pass not sure of the slope and the subs are set around 50hz low pass again not sure of the slope.
I spent quite a bit of time with a MP3 player hooked up to the Board adjusting the crossover points and it sounds pretty good IMOP and the rest of the instuments/vocals sound good it is the bass guitar that stinks.
Im not a sound guy obviously just the guy with all the gear and the only one who knows how to hook it up and use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prd004

PS: Double check me on this, because I'm only 75-85% sure and too lazy to do a search right now, plus I gotta go to work in a few minutes but are your JBL's the JRX 100's with the dual 15's? If I recall correctly these have a built in crossover for one of the fifteens so you are essentially getting one full range 15 and a pseudo sub. Combine that with the rest of your PA and you have two full range speakers and four subs, a bad setup! A whole lot of low mud and not nearly enough midrange for your bass to shine.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #7 05-04-2011, 08:09 AM

I did bypass the BBE DS24 and EQ and ran the Board directly in to the Amp and the Bass DI Channel did not improve it actually sounded a little worse,probobaly because I am running the the BBE at a 2db output gain on the mains and 6db gain on the bass sub channel with the EQ setting a little boosted in the upper mids.
There arent any other compressors or effects in the rig.
One last thing,I did plug the bass directly into the Mackie that is powering the JBL's and it sounded great (makes me wonder why I need all these outboard preamps anyway) so I am pretty sure that it is how the board is processing the bass signal.

uhdinator · #8 05-05-2011, 12:00 AM

Crossover could be higher like around 90-100hz. This will take some low out of the bottom 15" in the 215 mains. Also instead of boosting the low on the crossover set it at zero and turn down high on the crossover to balance to taste. This will give better headroom. Then amps can be turned up slightly if need be. EQ out some 150-250 hz in overall system if it's boomy in large rooms.

Use Hpf on vocal and guitar channels and even roll off some 80z to clean up vocals.
Boost 2-3khz on vocals to get a little presence on voice and cut a little in that range on guitars so they don't compete.

Adding 2 more top cabs made you sound clearer as you just added more SPL to your top end by adding more cabs. Turning down xover LF and turning up system a little does the same.

testing1two · #9 05-05-2011, 12:09 AM

How are you setting the input gain of the bass channel on your Allen & Heath? Also, when you plug your bass directly into the amplifier does the overall volume seem lower or higher than when you use the mixer?

lowfreq33 · #10 05-05-2011, 12:35 AM

We're using the same JBL mains, and they sort of just do that. They're kind of weird in the midrange, and they can get muddy real fast. I have the hardest time getting my bass to speak clearly on them without getting obnoxious and overwhelming the band. As a point of reference I have an audio degree and I've been running sound for about 15 years. Those just aren't very good speakers. I hate them.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #11 05-05-2011, 04:36 AM

The exact reason that I added the Yamaha 12s,the JBL's just weren't capable of giving me that clear vocal upper mid I was looking for without getting harsh or wierd when you boosted the EQ.
What 2X15 style Speakers would you recommend that can keep up with Key's and bass that are reasonable in price?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

We're using the same JBL mains, and they sort of just do that. They're kind of weird in the midrange, and they can get muddy real fast. I have the hardest time getting my bass to speak clearly on them without getting obnoxious and overwhelming the band. As a point of reference I have an audio degree and I've been running sound for about 15 years. Those just aren't very good speakers. I hate them.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #12 05-05-2011, 04:44 AM

I did have the crossover higher on the 2x15 and it sounds better to me with the crossover set around 50hz,Im not having a lower muddy issue it is the upper midrange that caused me to add the 12s.
I do have the 80hz hpf set on the board for all vocals and guitars,I leave the kick drum,key's and bass full pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uhdinator

Crossover could be higher like around 90-100hz. This will take some low out of the bottom 15" in the 215 mains. Also instead of boosting the low on the crossover set it at zero and turn down high on the crossover to balance to taste. This will give better headroom. Then amps can be turned up slightly if need be. EQ out some 150-250 hz in overall system if it's boomy in large rooms.

Use Hpf on vocal and guitar channels and even roll off some 80z to clean up vocals.
Boost 2-3khz on vocals to get a little presence on voice and cut a little in that range on guitars so they don't compete.

Adding 2 more top cabs made you sound clearer as you just added more SPL to your top end by adding more cabs. Turning down xover LF and turning up system a little does the same.

The BBE DS24 allows you to cut or boost the HPF or LPF output signal after the crossover,the Allen & Heath only has 2 full pass XLR outputs.
When I plug my bass directly into the amp the volume goes up in comparrison to plugged into the board,I could easily gig with it direct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by testing1two

How are you setting the input gain of the bass channel on your Allen & Heath? Also, when you plug your bass directly into the amplifier does the overall volume seem lower or higher than when you use the mixer?

uhdinator · #13 05-05-2011, 12:32 PM

Somethings wrong if your bass plugged direct into a PA amp with no pre amp is louder than the bass going thru the mixer pre amp and is lower in volume.

Your instrument level is driving the PA amp louder than a line level feed from a mixer? Something is not gain staged correctly maybe?

MNAirHead · #14 05-05-2011, 01:35 PM

Let's back up...

Is your sound appropriate for the ENTIRE band.. meaning are you spectrum slotted well.

Bass kids get overly worried about "my tone" when the band produces "our sound"

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IF self-running sound, It's VERY possible that your gear is conflicting with itself.

IF you have a pro sound engineer, they may be slotting you to match the band...

=-----

We all need to remmber bedroom/ipod/headphones tone is not what sells drinks and happy brides, it's an overall good product visually pleasing to the influencer with the checkbook.

rockstarbassist · #15 05-05-2011, 02:48 PM

Yup.
That's why I've adjusted mine a good bit here recently. We were sorely lacking some bass fundamental as I had way too much grind in my live tone, as my guitards don't play bass heavy at all with their EQ, so even though I love it notched around 900-2k for myself or just playing around, I needed to back off of that and bump some 150-300s to make our sound more full.

Wes Whitmore · #16 05-05-2011, 03:14 PM

I'm kinda torn on this one recently as well. When I play the Warwick $$, it has a fuller/richer/punchier/bassier tone to it. I played that for ever until I started playing an MTD kingston, which is pretty much the opposite. Much less punchy with more midrange clarity and growl. Not nearly as hefty sounding, but just sounds great. The guitarist wanted to know where the deep bottom went, but the drummer really liked it. It plays well so I keep playing it. Which one is better for our sound? I don't know. The guitarist has a lot of bass in his patches, and he doesn't have screaming midrange coming out of his rig because he doesn't use a stage cab any more. Both sound good, but different. Wish I could put them together and use them both.
Wes

rockstarbassist · #17 05-05-2011, 03:25 PM

I go through the same thing at times. My drummer likes more of an attack in my bass tone, but if I don't put enough bottom end into it, my guitards start whining.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #18 05-05-2011, 03:33 PM

I dont have any complaints with how the rest of the band sounds through the PA,When I run my bass through the board it sounds weak and distant.
We have derailed the thread a little which I have contributed to because it has been a good discussion for sure that being said I am happy with the sound of the PA overall.
I am the "Sound guy" and Im learning as I go,I have been focusing on sonic space and getting everyone one were they should be including myself (like I said Learning!).
To summarize my tone sucks through the PA causing me to run my stage cab too loud.
Here is my Youtube link,I hate my mistakes but my singers mike quit so he grabbed mine and the sound was killing me so I was thinking about the adjustments I was going to make when I could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Xato306AY

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Let's back up...

Is your sound appropriate for the ENTIRE band.. meaning are you spectrum slotted well.

Bass kids get overly worried about "my tone" when the band produces "our sound"

---

IF self-running sound, It's VERY possible that your gear is conflicting with itself.

jaywa · #19 05-05-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prd004

One of the main reasons I never use the DI off the back of the amp is because all your rigs gain & EQ setteings are dialed in to match what your speaker cab is going to do with it, and it won't be doing the same thing through the PA.

The only time an onboard DI out is an issue relative to the P.A. is if it is Post-EQ (either by selection or default).

If it is wired or set to Pre then the board is seeing no more gain boost or coloration from the onboard DI than if you had plugged the bass into a standalone DI box. You may still pick up the tube pre-amp stage depending on how the head is wired, but that's it. Pre-EQ means just that.

MNAirHead · #20 05-05-2011, 03:41 PM

I'm a bass guy who does the same exact thing.

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Couple of notes...

1-Are you 100% sure you don't have competing setttings.. example.. some gear pre shapes a eq curve.. this may compete with the speakers etc..

2-Is it that big a deal... REason I say this is the "tone" I get applauded (and paid for the most) is highly inaudible... very sub like.

Reason is that it opens up the spectrum for other instruments.

3-Are you setting the entire mix from mid-room on a wireless?.. or just guessing that it's bad?

=----

Chances are you're fine, it sucks to own a zillion dollar amp that doesn't replicate through a $2200 PA.. unfortunatley this is the reality.

IF you can push your amp out of the band mates way.. it's possible you shouldn't go through the mains.. I'm not a fan of this as it starts SPL battles between members.