Bass Drum Rant / EQ Rant

[Russell L]

Ok, maybe this has been said a million times on here, but bear with me, ok? I just gotta say it.

I get tired of being covered up by the bass drum!

There, I feel better. A band I quit last year drove me nuts with the boomiest bass drum I've ever heard. It wasn't the drummer's fault, but the band leader and sound man. The leader wanted the drum to kick more. What we ended up with onstage was often low-end feedback. They always looked at me first like it was my fault. I just scowled back and shrugged. But, when it wasn't feeding back, the drum was so deep and loud that even with 300w running through my Markbass 112 monitor I couldn't hear a peep coming from it (I was also DI'd out through the mains). Nor could I hear myself in the monitors or bouncing off the back wall. I even quit playing in the middle of Play That Funky Music (noticeable bass part), but no one even gave me a glance. No one knew I wan't playing. Just plain stupid. The sound man said it sounded great out front. I said I didn't care, if I'm not having any fun onstage. I was like, "Why do ya'll even need a bass player?" But that's not all, sometimes the keyboard or guitar eqs are too boomy. Seems like everyone is out to mess up my sound by getting down in my frequencies. It's like having multiple bass players all rumbling along together. Of course, one of the problems with that band is too much equipment and no one who REALLY knows how to run it.

Then, another band that didn't even mic instruments had a drummer who overplayed. Dang it, here it was again. When we were on a hollow stage even his acuostic bass drum was boomy. No keyboard and the two guitars were ok on eq, though. better, but I was still battling the drum.

Now, finally I'm with some blues cats with a drummer who plays tastily and clean. We're simple, too, playing in the air, no mics but for vocals in small venues. Nice and clean sound. Guitars are good, too. Nice to be the bass player again and hear what I'm doing.

Jeez, what's wrong with folks these days?

[jaywa]

Agreed to all of the above. OP should be advised TB has instituted a hard line against criticizing FOH engineers... but it doesn't look like your issues are only with the sound guy so maybe it will survive.

A drummer who knows how to tune his kit... not just to what sounds or feels good to him but to what works in the context of the entire band... is worth his weight in gold. You can EQ the kick drum all you want but if it's way too big (or small) for the gig or it's not tuned right or has too much or too little damping or isn't mic'd correctly, there's only so much you can do. This is a big reason why kick drum triggering has become popular in some circles.

[4Mal]

Part of the band thing is to engineer a good low end sound for the band as a whole. Sometimes that means you go for a more midrangey tone rather than a fat round tome. basically the bass rides on top of the kick ... other times, the bass is pretty heavily filltered in the mid's and the kick sit's on top ...

Pretty much it's up to you and the drummer to figure out how the pieces work together. ... and of course if they don't, well there are always more bands ...

[Russell L]

Well, the sound man was always following instructions from the band leader. He actually complained a lot about what was asked of him. But, I think his knowledge was limited, too.

Here's the thing, many folks don't understand the bass sound, and when they want something they don't realize what it's doing to the bass man. I played with one band for awhile that had a very bassy keyboard. When he missed notes I got blamed for it. I could always feel the war in eq going on between his sound and mine. It made my bass sound feel "lumpy."

Anyway, ya'll lemme know if I'm saying anything that's not allowed. I'm new. But I feel that many bass players have run into these issues before. I'm just saying that it's easy to get lost in the mix when eqs get too low everywhere.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by jaywa

A drummer who knows how to tune his kit... not just to what sounds or feels good to him but to what works in the context of the entire band... is worth his weight in gold.

This goes for anyone - bass, guitar, keys, horns, etc.

I still think the two biggest detriments to good live sound are EQ and Gain Structure. You have to know how to set gain and you need to know how to carve out your "sonic space" in the range of frequencies.

[jaywa]

What I consider a good kick/bass sonic combination is when they are both relatively equal to each other volume wise but their sonic characteristics mesh something like this (with apologies for the non-techie language):

Kick drum - gives most of the super low "oomph" about half the "chest punch", and a bit of attack (not stupid levels of "click") to give that "locked in" sound with the bass.

Bass - just a bit of "oopmh", the other half of the chest punch, enough attack that you can hear defined notes (and silences) and the majority of the frequencies that define what actual note (on the scale) is being played.

The tonality of the bottom end should come from the bass... not the kick drum. When the tonality of the kick drum overpowers everything else it obliterates whatever the bassist may be doing harmonically or melodically. I think this is where things go wrong in a lot of modern live mixes.

[VanillaThundah]

I'm not sure if this is the case for the OP but I'll admit its something I was guilty of early on in my playing with others bands....

I would EQ and adjust everything in my room assuming that all I needed to manipulate in a band setting was my master volume, totally wrong. What sounds good in your personal practice space will not always cut through or sound good when you play with a full band. The mids might sound snarly and nasty when you play alone, but you need those for note definition and cut whenever you are dealing with being sandwiched between guitar and a bass drum. Not to mention that your overall sound is changed when cranked to higher volume levels. If I had to choose, I'd rather be able to hear myself than having the "perfect tone" =/

[greenboy]

My experience is that usually the huge kick fever has nothing to do DIRECTLY with "mix slotting". It has to do with people who want huge kick drum and don't know how a bass works in a system that has many more dB of input/output relegated to the subwoofer subsystem. As subs are typically run way hotter, you have to learn to compensate the bass guitar for that usually, because the overtone balance it has is decidedly different than what a mic'd kick drum has.

Bass guitar is more difficult in many respects too, because it actually plays tuned notes. But frankly, a lot of pro mixers just don't care much about the bass. It's the most expendable when push comes to shove. It's not fair, but that's often the way it's seen.

[Russell L]

Lots of good comments here, guys. Thanks.

One thing, as VanillaThundah pointed out, is to eq for ensemble playing, for it's a fact that what you get in your practice room alone will most likely not be what you need at the gig. I know for me, everytime I think I've discovered my favorite tone, it never works out at the gig. Or when I think I have it figured out at a gig, it doesn't work at the next venue. Can't help it, that's just the way it works.

Much of today's music is catered toward that heavy kick drum sound. That's a different sound from past decades. But, the band I mentioned earlier wasn't playing that stuff. We were doing old stuff that has the more traditional bass sound. So, the eq (onstage, at least) was way off for that. I would regularly look at the main board to see what the sound man had me set at, just in case. But I never got to hear it through the mains.

And yes, I agree that each player in a band should stay within a certain range of frequencies. I never paid as much attention to all that until I became a regular bass player all the time, some 23 years ago. Now, when anyone starts to get a bit deep I notice it. Heh, heh, I guess I'm selfish and want all the lows to myself. But, hey, I'm the bass. The bass drum is the trickiest thing to eq to go along with the bass. I love it when me and the bass drum play the same rhythm. It really gives my notes some punch (I always wanted a pedal that would do that---is there such a thing?).

[IvanMike]

Yep, sounds like you have a right to rant.

Often I try the "have another soundman talk to them" approach. Like Greenboy said, the big kick sound and not understanding how systems work can be an issue. Another huge issue for soundmen and for us as bass players is not "getting" how a kick and bass sound together. I've had some of the best mixes where my tone on it's own was not to my liking, but together with the kick we both sounded fantastic and never stepped on each others toes.

[greenboy]

Sufficient PA headroom and there's really not much effort involved in making kick and bass work well together, no special low end slotting is normally even needed. It practically takes care of itself because of the nature of kick mics and bass guitar overtone balance.

But as I said, there's that USER ERROR stuff about subs often running 6 to 10 dB hotter than mains and the worst thing of all is the effect that acoustics of venues have on long (low) waveforms. They don't mess with kick drum so much usually because kick drum is a static-centered frequency grouping. Once it's dialed in it doesn't play a bunch of different notes that form into different combinations of nulls and peaks.

Bass guitar can be a beeeotch.

[Russell L]

Oh yes indeed, I've played venues when there was no issue with the drum, but the room itself wouldn't let me hear myself, even if I played too loud. I remember one night playing in a huge ballroom for a debutante thingy. The whole band had to turn down to nearly acoustic volume levels. Now, we had played that room many times before, and always dreaded it because it was like playing in a gymnasium. Never could make it work. Heh, until we turned way down that night. that was the key for that room, play very soft. Weird.

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Oh yes indeed, I've played venues when there was no issue with the drum, but the room itself wouldn't let me hear myself, even if I played too loud. I remember one night playing in a huge ballroom for a debutante thingy. The whole band had to turn down to nearly acoustic volume levels. Now, we had played that room many times before, and always dreaded it because it was like playing in a gymnasium. Never could make it work. Heh, until we turned way down that night. that was the key for that room, play very soft. Weird.

That's not all that unusual. There's a lot involved in terms of acoustics, but I've often run into the "little room turn up/big room turn down" scenario.

[Saxn]

Originally Posted by jaywa

OP should be advised TB has instituted a hard line against criticizing FOH engineers...

Can anyone tell me why these guys get a pass on a verbal (or textual... whatever) thrashing if they deserve it? No disrespect intended and I don't wanna hijack, but it seems like ANYONE can be lousy at their job...

Ok, carry on.

[greenboy]

Passing the blame never accomplishes much anyway. Knowledge is key. Whether it's technical or acoustics stuff, or the relationship stuff. Bassists are often clueless and hard to deal with because of it, too.

A lot of us have been on both sides of the mixer, so take that in the spirit that it's intended.

[Saxn]

Oh, I know man... believe me, I know! Just wondering how sound guys achieved 'protected status' is all.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Saxn

Oh, I know man... believe me, I know! Just wondering how sound guys achieved 'protected status' is all.

Me, too. (I can hijack my own thread).

[WayneP]

Originally Posted by Saxn

Oh, I know man... believe me, I know! Just wondering how sound guys achieved 'protected status' is all.

I can see you guys are new here – it was because of a lot of sound man bashing threads, primarily from people who’ve never sat behind a console themselves.

I recall one thread started by a guy who was obviously a competent and experienced sound man complaining about a jazz festival he had worked over the weekend, and all the trouble he’d had with uncooperative and/or clueless bass players that basically nuked his efforts to get them to sound good to the audience. I mean, if the guy’s a soundman who’s also a bass player himself, you know he cares about getting the bass right more than the average sound man. Before the thread was shut down, the guy was getting dressed down by (among others) such experts as a teenager who had only played a couple of gigs.

Not that there isn’t a shortage of incompetent sound men. I can’t remember the last time I went to a show and was impressed with the mix. But I used to have a weekend mixing gig, and you’d be surprised how difficult it is to get good-sounding bass in the typical club environment. Even if you technically and theoretically know what it takes (like frequency slotting, minimizing low end in everything else but the bass), getting the people on stage to cooperate is a challenge. The guitar players like their fat bottom end, the drummer loves his boomy, undampened drums, etc. Even if you can get everything on the stage under control, you get down to the bassist himself and/or his instrument and/or rig.

I mean, if you have four bass players on the stage on a given night, and three of them you can’t get anything but boomy, indistinct mud no matter how much you fiddle with the EQ, but the fourth guy comes through clear and clean and you hear every note perfectly – what else accounts for that except the individual player? Shockingly, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as far as the choice of instruments. Some of the best sound I got came from guys with cheap Mexican Fenders who followed a “mud monster” with a nice $2000 bass.

The point is, with a “crappy sound man” thread we have no way of knowing if soundman was the problem, or if the OP just doesn’t have a clue how to help the process along and was actually the problem himself.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[TimmyP]

Great post Wayne. I've been there plenty of times. A while back I told a guy "I've had seven bassists on stage this weekend, and you are the only one who sounded worth a **** - you made mixing your band a pleasure".

[Saxn]

Thanks for the reply Wayne. That clears things up a bit. I have been behind the board a couple of times myself and even through that little bit of experience I have seen the uncooperative musician syndrome kick in... a guitarist that doesn't believe in using any sort of FOH help because it kills 'his sound' and a keyboardist that says 'It's a cold day in hell before I turn the sound over to anyone else, you don't know what *I* wanna sound like...' so I feel the pain of the slider jockeys. These guys were in the same band and I was just trying to achieve a more 'professional' sound at FOH, so needless to say after that sort of feedback I just threw up my hands and played along.

I didn't realize it was such a widespread problem, though!