Bassists who double on keyboards

onosson · #1 02-04-2011, 04:28 PM

I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this thread, so please move it if there's a better home for it.

I play more and more gigs these days where I double on keys. I come from an organ background, it was my first instrument, but I picked up the bass in high school and it's always been my main instrument. Right now I have an original (old) model Korg CX-3 organ that I use when doubling. It has very strong low end, is fairly compact, and sounds good for what I do (mainly rhythm playing, but some soloing). However, it's getting a bit old and unreliable, and I also want to add to my sounds with some good acoustic piano and elec. piano (rhodes especially) sounds.

What would be some good newer keyboards to recommend for this purpose? I want authentic "vintage" elec. piano and organ (hammond) tones, as well as nice acoustic piano, and have to be able to cover the bottom with my left hand. I don't necessarily want full piano-style action (I am an organ player, not a pianist) but I don't want too synthy feeling if I can avoid it. The Korg SV-1 is at the top of my list right now, but I really don't want to spend that much if I can help it... I'd like to keep it closer to $1000 if possible. There are a few cheaper Korg models out there, the M50 for example, but they all seem a little flimsy to me.

Anyways, if anyone has some practical knowledge and experience to share in this vein, it would be very appreciated!

jaykay · #2 02-05-2011, 06:46 AM

I'm also a doubler (on keys).

Get a Nord Electro. You can probably find an older Electro 2 for around 1100. The Electro 3 is, I think, around 1800.

These are expensive, but worth every penny. They simply sound great, especially the Wurli and Rhoades. The clav and organ are nice, too.

Windreaper · #3 02-05-2011, 07:06 AM

Nord Electro seconded, good hammond/rhodes sounds and passable acoustic piano. Looks sexy, too.

onosson · #4 02-05-2011, 10:39 AM

Thanks for the info guys... It doesn't hurt that Hiromi Uehara plays a Nord too!

OPBASSMAN1994 · #5 02-05-2011, 10:46 AM

I double on keys, and I really don't need much....I've got a nice little Casio keyboard that really does the job well. Then again, I'm only 16, and we don't play huge places really, so maybe my needs will change eventually, however...

suraci · #6 02-08-2011, 04:20 AM

I am like you, a doubler. I like B3 ( Many pianists are not naturally talented on Organ... I have observed this for decades )
Since you mentioned Organ, Nord has the best combo of Organ, Ac Piano Elec Pianos, and Synth.
But the Nord does not really have Bass, which you may or may not care about; instead using the B3 as a Bass.
I own a newer Cx3
a newer Roland Fantom ( after the "X", I literally cannot recall the latest LETTER!! )
The Fantom basses are some of the most realistic; generally my favorites. They are derived from samples of 3 great bass players. Marcus, John Pattitucci, and Abe Laboriel. Both elec basses, string basses ( Likely John P ) and a few fretless.
These basses original were introduced by Roland within their cards under the name BAss and Drums. Then they reappeared in Ultimate Keys Card for SRX cards. So you don't have to get a newer Fantom to have these sounds, just more convenient.

You realize, no single keyboard is all things to all keyboardists.
Best ac piano is perhaps the $6000 Roland V ***
Or the Kurz pianos

best B3 in a board, is Nord, or Suzuki hammonds' many incarnations, Studio Logic's Numa, with The Cx3 a contender.

Best EP's is tough to call, but Nord is up there at the top.

So if no bass, Nord is the winner because of superior Organ
If you need Bass, you have my sympathy.. no single board does it all.
BUT for a lesser Organ than the Nord, the new Kurzweil Pc3 is a great piano, very good EP's better basses than a Nord. the best orchestral sounds inc strings, unless you want highly affected strings. And a great Synth.

I forgot Yamaha
Their B3 is well below the Nord, so I do not even think of it.
Korg has a new Kronos, but very pricey ( I assume ) it has the Cx3 in it... hopefully better ac pianos, decent EPs.
Fantom, has inferior Organ ( I forgot to mention ) as do Yammy, Maybe the Kurz is a better B3 but really only the Nord has a seriously better B3 but no drawbars, but a substitute.

You will have to list which category of instrument is most important-
if B3 s number 1 , Nord ( assuming you don't want dedicated Organ !) is winner
If Ac Piano is primary ( among Yamaha Korg Nord Roland Kurweil ) Kurz is the best ( unless a dedicated piano the $6K Roland V !)
If EP is primary, that is open ended Kurz Yamaha Nord Korg.. a tough call , so the OTHER categories will help you decide. And unfortunately weighted action is preferable.
Synth, is not my domain, but they are all capable, with Nord handy for quick hard wired knobs, and Kurz for deep editing. But Synth is not my thing.
Orchestral Kurz by a mile
Basses IMO Roland wins, but my old Kurz has a decent Ac bass, Yamaha has some nice elec basses. Korg no, Nord no.

Good luck

onosson · #7 02-10-2011, 08:47 AM

Thanks for all the comments - I decided on the Nord Electro 3 and ordered one last night!

scottbass · #8 02-10-2011, 09:36 AM

I don't even know if they still sell them, but my keyboard rig consists of an Alesis QS6 (61-key, unweighted) for Hammond/synth work and an Alesis QS8 (88-key Fatar hammer-weighted) for piano work. The fact that they have the same programming interface, patch numbers, etc. makes it incredibly easy and flexible for me. I also own most of the expansion ROM cartridges that consist of real orchestral samples, Hammond B3 samples, synth samples, classic piano samples, etc. When I play live I run through a Motion Sound real rotating horn amp which also includes two "clean" channels for the pianos and synths.

If you play both organ and piano, you know how much better it is to have the correct keyboard (unweighted for organ, full hammer-weighted for piano) to allow you to get the correct expressions when you play.

I just LOVE this rig - fantastic Hammond/Leslie vibe without putting up with the incredible weight and unreliability of real Hammond/Leslie gear. And full synth/MIDI capabilities for whatever you need to do live and in the studio.

suraci · #9 02-10-2011, 01:02 PM

Lads Lasses
I just played my dedicated Clonewheel B3, the latest ( 2005 approx ) Korg CX3
last night
I got lazy, and did NOT hook up my new Ventilator on 1st set
2nd set I hooked it up
mono out of CX3
stereo OUT of Ventilator ( 1st set, just stereo to speakers, using the pretty decent Leslie Sim in the CX3 )

I have to report, the Ventilator was quite superior to any Leslie sim I have heard. As well it should be, at $500 .
You get that WOOD sound of a Leslie... it is so welcome.

honeyiscool · #10 02-10-2011, 03:52 PM

Try to get one used. You might be able to find a Korg M3 for cheaper. They're absolutely worth it.

chuck3 · #11 02-10-2011, 03:57 PM

the comments here about the Nord Electro 2 are spot on. It has a *great* organ sound, but not a great low end past a certain point. They disclose this in the manual. The frequencies only go so low within the unit, so if you try a run that goes below - I think it's two octaves below middle C - the low undertones cut out and it sounds weird.

I really wish this wasn't the case, as it's otherwise an outstanding keyboard. It's fine if there is a bass player other than me playing, but it prevents me from playing keyboards live in lieu of bass.

I've thought about adding a little mini-synth keyboard just for bass, but I'm not *that* into keyboards.

onosson · #12 02-18-2011, 12:49 PM

So I got my Nord Electro 3 on Monday, and I've had it out to two gigs this week - it totally rocks! Thanks for everyone's good advice, it was *most* helpful!

rappa29 · #13 02-18-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suraci

Lads Lasses
I just played my dedicated Clonewheel B3, the latest ( 2005 approx ) Korg CX3
last night
I got lazy, and did NOT hook up my new Ventilator on 1st set
2nd set I hooked it up
mono out of CX3
stereo OUT of Ventilator ( 1st set, just stereo to speakers, using the pretty decent Leslie Sim in the CX3 )

I have to report, the Ventilator was quite superior to any Leslie sim I have heard. As well it should be, at $500 .
You get that WOOD sound of a Leslie... it is so welcome.

The Ventilator FKN ROCKS! I can't even bear to use the onboard Leslie sim of my Xk1 or Electro 3 since I bought a Vent last summer! You're absolutely correct, the combination of capturing the tone of a Leslie 122 cabinet PLUS the OD of the 122 makes very authentic!

rappa29 · #14 02-18-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

So I got my Nord Electro 3 on Monday, and I've had it out to two gigs this week - it totally rocks! Thanks for everyone's good advice, it was *most* helpful!

I recently bought an Electro 3. I owned an Electro 2 when it first came out. The Electro 3 kicks it's arse! Very good 'all in one' vintage electromechanical keyboard emulator. Plus the sample load option opens it up to even greater versatility with access to Nord's Sample Library free!

Melik · #15 02-18-2011, 01:02 PM

Oh boy I wish I could join this club but I don't double well enough so that I could call myself a doubler

onosson · #16 02-18-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rappa29

I recently bought an Electro 3. I owned an Electro 2 when it first came out. The Electro 3 kicks it's arse! Very good 'all in one' vintage electromechanical keyboard emulator. Plus the sample load option opens it up to even greater versatility with access to Nord's Sample Library free!

Yeah, I think it was the sample library that put it over the top for me - original Mellotron samples! I just wish they had put more memory in the thing or added a card slot to expand it...

BluesMan1 · #17 02-26-2011, 02:07 AM

Just bought a well used Casio CT-650. Was curious about keys and interested in theory (Jazz improv is my goal).

1 day in and I can already see how easy it is to visualize intervals on the keyboard as compared to the bass. Also figuring out chords and the tonal differences between them is much easier and faster.

The plan is to transpose the knowledge gained from the keyboard to the bass, and also get good at playing keys in the process.

Any tips for a keyboard noob?

suraci · #18 02-26-2011, 02:38 AM

1. good goal
2. how much time do you have to devote?
3. you say... jazz ( improv and jazz go together ) is your goal
4 do you listen to jazz music? Note your preferences, and focus on those keyboardists
used to be called "your idol" mine was coltrane
5 there are a number of reasons to do #4, but hard work os needed, and the more I like something, the easier it is to spend upwards of 5 hours a day working on it.
Imagine the opposite, studying music you were ambivalent about? Not much fun, and less likely you would put the time in.
6 withOUT loads of time, jazz is just too difficult, unless you are a genius.. and if you are, you will naturally practice all the time anyhow!
7 a teacher is not a bad idea... take your time, maybe play the field as you make your search. After you find "the one" give that teacher your best.
LISTEN to pianists a LOT
on record, in person

possibly jamey abersold recordings can help
mark levine has a few books
as do others
I don't know your degree of interest or talent or time available, so that's a start.

BluesMan1 · #19 02-26-2011, 03:44 AM

Thanks for the reply. Time I can make. A few of my favorite jazz artists in order are:

1) Charlie Parker
2) Thelonious Monk
3) John Coltrane
4) Max Roach
5) Sonny Rollins

Besides these: Ron Carter, Cannonball, Clifford Brown, Art Blakey, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles, et al. Pretty much everything bebop and hard bop.

Also into jazz fusion: Weather Report, Return to Forever, Pat Metheny, Miles' electric albums, etc.

Bass however is my first love. On a side note, another goal is to move on to fretless (I'm only a few months into playing bass).

My whole approach is to try and understand music as a whole, that's why I decided to buy a keyboard. I'd like to believe that playing keyboard will not take anything away from my (limited) bass abilities.

suraci · #20 02-26-2011, 05:50 AM

Your taste in jazz is the same as my own.
Assuming you are a young person, I find this fact, pretty amazing.
But we are drifting afield from topic a bit.
Keyboard and any involvement in jazz, go hand and hand.
You have to get more familiar with harmony in order to improvise.
Here is a list, off the top of my head, of jazz people who played keyboard.
Dizzy, Blakey, Ron Carter took lessons, Mike and Randy Brecker, Bob Mintzer, Grover Washington, Sarah Vaughn, Joe Chambers, Ray Brown, ( I assume Coltrane and Rollins ), ( Obviously, guitar players can skip piano, but even they are interested!! It is so much easier to see {and hear?} harmony melody counterpoint) , Aretha Franklin, I believe Philly Jo Jones, likely Cannonball, because he taught music at a University in Florida., Bob Brookmeyer, Gerry Mulligan. I guess we can stop there, just making a point.

To understand music as a whole, I would say, yes to piano, and I would go further and say study classical composition. It is the composer who has the widest perspective. And a composer who does NOT play piano, is the exception, I should think.