Best way to EQ an entire band?

[Gord]

Hi Guys,
My band is finally sitting down and finding a sound that really gets us sounding huge. Right now, we are basically all using a tone that makes us sound good on our own, and one big muddy mess when we're all together.

What are some good tips for getting us sounding good? Right now my bass is dialed in to cut through the guitarists mess. Deep but growly in the mids. Really nice, locks in with the drums perfectly. What are some tips for the guitarists though? I know cutting back on the lows is good, to sit ontop of my sound instead of dipping into it, but what else?

[whorockserock]

Gord:

IMO, IME and all that jazz,

I can only tell you what I know from my experience. From what I understand you like the way you and the drummer sound, but not so much the guitarirst. Is this right? Your environment has to do a lot with the sound. Are you asking regarding a practice space or music venues? Due to acoustics being different everywhere, you will hear differences wherever you go. Also other factors include genre, tuning, effects, and gear.

To try to answer your question as best as possible, the sound frequency of a guitar is higher than the bass, so if his sound is clashing with yours he could try not having as much low end and tightening up the mids. Also I would say try having everyone start out at a low volume and start progressing louder and louder making the necessary changes. I hope this helps.

[Gord]

Actually, that's a point I completely neglected. We do (especially my bass) sound a LOT different when we're out of the practice space. After our last show, another member of the band told us that we sounded "muddy". I'm chalking that up to my bass, so I'll make sure to take off some lows for the next show.

As for the genre, we're loud rock, with distorted guitars. The guitars don't compete as much with me as they do with eachother. What's the best way to get them sounding good, and still have me be able to fill out the low end?

[fokof]

One thing to consider , that is my experience, when you hear a very good mix of a band , if you listen to players in "solo" with that mix, it's more often than not , not the biggest sound around.
Meaning your big fat tone alone is not necesarily gonna be what's best for the whole band's sound.

Lucky you if it fits perfectly in the mix......

[Gord]

well, right now I fit perfectly into the muddy mess of a mix. I'm sure once we get guitars figured out, I'm going to be completely out of place.

Is there a way to get a nice thick sound without being too boomy? I'm using an Ampeg SVP-CL preamp, and it seems it's either zero low end, or way too boomy, which adds mud to everything. There's absolutely NO middle ground!

[Jehos]

The trick is to give everybody their own sonic space.

Kick drum should be the only thing in deep lows
Bass guitar owns midbass and low mids
Guitar and vocals get space carved out of mids and lower highs
Cymbals and snare get the highs

Typically what people call "muddy" is too much competition in the mid bass and lower mid frequencies. Around the 120Hz to 600Hz range. If you're mixing for a show, you want to dial the kick so it's a nice deep *thud* without any real resonance in the room. The bass guitar, you have to tweak your mids and low-mids to eliminate "room boom". The guitar should have no bass in it at all--take your guitarists "low" knob and turn it all the way off. He gets the upper mids and highs to play in, its your job to support him and make him sound good with half his tone missing. Also make sure the guitar isn't stepping on the vocals--give the vocals a boost in a range of frequencies where the guitar is cut.

That's the bare basics--there's an art to mixing well that I don't personally possess.

Oh, and you have to re-mix in every room. You can't set it and forget it.

[jaywa]

Jehos -

Excellent, concise summary. IME the lows and low-mids is where too many bands tend to "cluster" too many instruments. When the kick drum, bass guitar and two guitars and/or keyboards are all cranked up in the 100-500 Hz range it just ain't gonna work. Especially if you're in a room that's boomy to begin with. And then the singer wants some low end put on so his voice has more "balls". And on and on. Resulting in the classic, LAHACA mix = Loud As Hell And Can't Hear Anyone.

[NGL]

subscribed for good insights

[Jehos]

One thing I forgot to mention--when you have a really good mix, every instrument sounds kind of weak by itself. That's a GOOD thing. The bass should sound like it's got a little too much mids and not enough highs, the guitar should sound a little thin, and the vocals should sound like they've got a weird EQ boost somewhere.

That's why I laugh to myself every time I read about bassists here who work so hard to get "their tone". I'll bet that 49 out of 50 tone-focused bassists have a tone that sucks in a mix. After 10 or so years of playing live, what works for me is to just play a bass with a sound I like (Warwick is my current favorite), feed a signal with a little midrange and low-mid bump to the board, and let the sound guy take care of the rest.

Heck, I just heard a recording last week of an outdoor festival gig we played. My signal was Corvette Standard with the tone knob all the way up -> Markbass 2x10 combo with everything set dead flat -> FOH. The bass sounds killer in the mix--the sound guy did a really good job. My normal stage rig is just bass -> Pod X3 Live -> FOH. If I could find a direct box with a built-in tuner, I'd probably use that.

[IvanMike]

jehos is dead on.

i do a lot of live sound and some recording. play in a lot of bands as well. When i do sound for a live band i start with the board flat on every channel. EQ is for fixing problems.

when recording, engineers use a technique called "frequency slotting" which is essentially what jehos describes. Every instrument gets a sonic space in which to "live". You do a similar thing live, sometimes not to the same extreme. solo any instrument and it's not going to sound awesome. (heck just listen, really listen to some well recorded CDs. - i bet the instruments sound a little odd when you just focus on one)

Overall the biggest obstacle i run into in bands and when doing sound is to convince the guitar players to take some of the lows and low mids out of their tone. I've even had an inexperienced soundman keep telling me to turn my bass down because it sounded muddy. The fifth time he told me i pointed to my bass and amp - there was no cord between them, i had removed it.

[fokof]

+1000000000

you're putting the right words with what I meant in reply #4
Thanx





PS; english is not my 1st language......

[MNAirHead]

You're getting some great coaching.

Bass Gear is Misleading
Unfortunately bass gear over the past decade has done more to destroy live sound than help. It's common for folks to perceive that they can push a modeling button and sound like Les Claypool. Geddy, Marcus, Budda, Claypool all have bands arranged around them.


Couple of cheap gear options...

1-Cheap wireless.... have someone balance everything from mid house. This can be just about any wireless.. put it away when done. I just picked up one for $10 at a pawn shop.. good enough for sound check.

2-RTA/Spectrum Analyzer.. this basically measures the characteristics of the room and helps you use the EQ to balance the PA to the environment. Takes some time to locate one as most folks forget what they are.. I've seen them as low as $25 on craigslist.

3-In Ear & Direct and Ditch All Stage Amps... one of the cool things all this modeling stuff can do is create the headphone illusion that you actually own an SVT. Going in ear will be an awakening to your band as they individulaly can turn up and not create front of house issues.

NOTES
1-Have Everyone set everyone else's tone knobs. I'll commonly let the guitard roll back my highs and mids.. I then roll back his lows.. it's kind of a punk kindergartner way to ensure folks all aren't walking over each other. The challenge is then to ensure folks all stick to it.

2-Smaller Guitar amps (or attenuators)... this is a tricky one as guitar players love huge gear... few will admit that a single 12 tube amp will work.. they'll crank huge JCMs to get their sweet overdriven sound... there are gizmos to go between the heads and cabinets.. basically cranks the head. then turns it back down before the speakers.

3-Positioning Amps.. this has a ton with sound.. play around with it.. it's nutty how many folks will put a Boogie 4-12 directly on the floor right up against the wall.


Priority Order
Most bands do not do this.. they all sit around complaining about sound and never have decision that vocals are the most important element. Common poprock sound band mix is Bass drum and vocals as the prominant pieces.. then barely adding other elements to the mix to make it all blend together.


Final Notes & Opinions..
Any stage sound has to be compensated at front of house.
Balanced PA sound is more important to your audience than stage sound.

Your huge gear should be left at home for outdoor and stadium events.

Never loose focus on what your paying audience will pay more for... bleeding ears are not one of them.

Do a bit of google reading on Sound Pressure vs Sound Level..

"Unthink Cutting Through the Mix" this basically means competing for the "sweet spot" of hearing... meaning anyone that uses this term forgets the bass role in the mix. Next time you're at a very well put together live sound concert.. notice that the bass is almost indistinguishable - it's the foundation.. not the lead vocal... Guitars do this in the direct opposite way.. having a Reggae or Telecaster sound to their rhythm playing shows all of their downfaults.. they'll quickly gravitate to a thick muddy Zakk Wylde soujnd to create this strange inaudible sound wall.

Practice with 20 watt amps... once everyone gets over their gear you'll appreciate being able to communicate.. not have ears ring.. work on harmony etc.


I feel for you in a guitar based band.. these guys spend their lives having everyone turn down and look forward to gigging because they can then crank their skyscraper sized gear to 10 (that they should leave at home).

All this coming from a guy who has 15 cabinets (in storage)

Tim

[Jehos]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Bass Gear is Misleading
Unfortunately bass gear over the past decade has done more to destroy live sound than help. It's common for folks to perceive that they can push a modeling button and sound like Les Claypool. Geddy, Marcus, Budda, Claypool all have bands arranged around them.

Truer words were never spoken. It drives me nuts when I read here about people wanting to get a bass sound like Claypool or Flea or whatever. Flea gets to have a monster tone because he plays in effectively a 3-pieces (guitar, drums, bass), and the guitarist plays funk chords with a thin little tone way up high on the neck. Claypool gets the same thing--his guitarist noodles away up on the high stuff playing a lot of single notes and double-stops and leaving TONS of sonic space for the bass guitar. Unless your band is showcasing *you*, you'll never get to sound like them.

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

3-In Ear & Direct and Ditch All Stage Amps... one of the cool things all this modeling stuff can do is create the headphone illusion that you actually own an SVT. Going in ear will be an awakening to your band as they individulaly can turn up and not create front of house issues.

Oh man, have I ever become a believer in this. My current band is the first one I've been in where everybody uses in-ears. We do our own mix, and the mixer has 4 different aux sends so not only do we all get in-ears, we each get our own monitor mix which is brilliant. The only thing making a sound on stage is the guitarist's little 25-watt combo, the drum kit, and the singers. It is *so* simple to get a decent sounding mix with minimal effort in FOH, and everybody gets to hear whatever mix makes them happy. No volume wars on stage ever because somebody "can't hear themselves".

[refuge4]

+1 frequency slotting is your best friend as well as upping mids on your bass. a lot of good things have been said thus far, however after arguing with multiple bands about monitor mixes/isolating amps/in ears etc. there are a few things that i have learned (all imo, but curious to see if anyone else agrees with me) first of all,

if the monitor mix/stage sound is good, even if it's loud, it's ok. i'm in a band that was obsessed with lowering stage volume. we iso'ed all the amps, gave the drummer ears, and just had three monitors on stage. i hated it. i couldn't get into the music bc i felt like i was listening to an elevator version of our tunes. after much debating we brought everything back on stage, and fine tuned the sound so that the stage mix complemented the house mix. never heard any band sound better. props to our sound guy who explained this to me.

i've had similar experiences with in ears. i've never been able to get a good sound out of avioms. everything sounds really thin, but, just like above, that's how it's supposed to sound. i'm no sound guy, but once i talked to a few and got some basics down, i learned how to make my mix sound good. hard panning is your best friend.

all this being said, lots of others above have made great points such as:

different venue different mix
playing as a band v. playing as an individual
thinking from an audience perspective

this is one of the most useful threads you can read! good input from everyone!

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by refuge4

+1 frequency slotting is your best friend as well as upping mids on your bass. a lot of good things have been said thus far, however after arguing with multiple bands about monitor mixes/isolating amps/in ears etc. there are a few things that i have learned (all imo, but curious to see if anyone else agrees with me) first of all,

if the monitor mix/stage sound is good, even if it's loud, it's ok. i'm in a band that was obsessed with lowering stage volume. we iso'ed all the amps, gave the drummer ears, and just had three monitors on stage. i hated it. i couldn't get into the music bc i felt like i was listening to an elevator version of our tunes. after much debating we brought everything back on stage, and fine tuned the sound so that the stage mix complemented the house mix. never heard any band sound better. props to our sound guy who explained this to me.

i've had similar experiences with in ears. i've never been able to get a good sound out of avioms. everything sounds really thin, but, just like above, that's how it's supposed to sound. i'm no sound guy, but once i talked to a few and got some basics down, i learned how to make my mix sound good. hard panning is your best friend.

all this being said, lots of others above have made great points such as:

different venue different mix
playing as a band v. playing as an individual
thinking from an audience perspective

this is one of the most useful threads you can read! good input from everyone!

Frequency.. you should be avoiding mids and highs for a slot... not bump mids.

In Ears.. to effectively do this EVERYONE really should be forced to give it a 3 month try.. and go on a mission to dail it in.. (including practice at home)... it does take time to get used to... it's no different than being in a recording studio.

Sound guy.. it takes quite the uncommon guy to get stage wedges right.. AND balance them with front of house between latency bounce etc.

AVIOMS.. Chances are it's the earbud/IEMs that were being used along with the EQ being sent back to the monitor mix. Did you have your earbuds fit by an audiologist? Which model were you using.. there are some engineered for vocals.. some for bass.. some for aviation etc... some isoloate.. some noise cancel.

Sorry to hear about your experience.. sounds kind of like if there was expected magic. Since IEM is kind of like a microscope for sound, listening closely many times will lead to a secondary EQ/Sound Proccess.

Many times the issues also are hearing stuff that normally gets ignored (shuffling paper etc).

Unfortunately IEM for live sound is like running 2 different situations.. IEM are very much like studio recording.. FOH is more like concert amplification.

It's rare to find the road crew that can dial in a studio.. or studio guy who can mix a rock band concert.

Sorry to hear your attempt wasn't succesful - Please PM me, I'm interested in your dusty gear.

Tim

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Jehos

That's why I laugh to myself every time I read about bassists here who work so hard to get "their tone". I'll bet that 49 out of 50 tone-focused bassists have a tone that sucks in a mix.

Hi. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm #50.

So now we're going to tell people that wanting to work hard at having a good tone is a bad thing? No, we shouldn't tell them that. What we need to tell them is that everything should have its own strong frequency area in the mix, and what sounds good by itself doesn't always sound good in a mix, and you should be willing to make adjustments for the room and other instruments when necessary. But finding one's tone and working hard to achieve it is a good thing, never a bad thing.

And as far as modeling and IEMs, yes, they do work, but they are not for everybody. No simulator, not even the great Tech 21 VT Bass pedal, is a substitute for the real thing when it's what you're used to. And nothing would suck all the joy out of a gig for me like using IEM's and having no amps onstage. So while it's perfectly valid to use IEM's and modeling pedals, they're not the answer for everybody, nor should they be, so instead of pushing them as a one size fits all solution, let's just put them forward as a solution that could work for some people, not the be all and end all of live sound.

[JackANSI]

All the comments here are definitely in the right direction.. You don't hear too much of slapping a single EQ on the entire band, but rather tune each instrument into a specific slot. Thats the best place to start, always.

[Jehos]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hi. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm #50.

Man, I had to laugh when I read that, because you're exactly who I had in mind for #50.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hi. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm #50.

So now we're going to tell people that wanting to work hard at having a good tone is a bad thing? No, we shouldn't tell them that. What we need to tell them is that everything should have its own strong frequency area in the mix, and what sounds good by itself doesn't always sound good in a mix, and you should be willing to make adjustments for the room and other instruments when necessary. But finding one's tone and working hard to achieve it is a good thing, never a bad thing.

And as far as modeling and IEMs, yes, they do work, but they are not for everybody. No simulator, not even the great Tech 21 VT Bass pedal, is a substitute for the real thing when it's what you're used to. And nothing would suck all the joy out of a gig for me like using IEM's and having no amps onstage. So while it's perfectly valid to use IEM's and modeling pedals, they're not the answer for everybody, nor should they be, so instead of pushing them as a one size fits all solution, let's just put them forward as a solution that could work for some people, not the be all and end all of live sound.

Valid notes as usual Jimmy.

I appreciate the and opinion. You always make some great points.

Dumb question --- how would you solve our original poster's issue?..

Tim

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Valid notes as usual Jimmy.

I appreciate the and opinion. You always make some great points.

Dumb question --- how would you solve our original poster's issue?..

Even dumber answer...I don't know

It would be a matter of being there and listening for specifics. That's impossible to do here in Florida, though. So my remote answer would be to read this thread and learn all you can about mixing a band and frequency slotting, and don't be so hellfired up about your own tone where you stick a shiv into the sound of everyone else.

And Jehos, I have a confession...I have no idea what I'm talking about. The only reason people think I have a good sound is because I tell them I do...power of positive thinking