Bose L1 system versus Fishman SoloAmp

[Akami]

Originally Posted by randommiker

...Bose is not picked by pros's...

Actually it's people making a living playing who are buying them and you appear to have come to TalkBass specifically to grind your ax with Bose.

Originally Posted by LaklandBass

bhahahahahahahahaha ummm YEA? do you often buy things that you dont like? Theres a pattern amongst people that dont like it... they didnt buy it.. yea that sounds about right dude.

Yeah, duh dude. I don't buy things I don't like, but then I don't put out a concerted effort to bust the balls and question the sanity of those who like products I that don't like.

There's a pattern also among those elitists who feel that once they've spoken, everyone else should fall in line, which is what both of you two have and are doing. You guys don't like the Bose system, fine, but there's no need to impugn those who do, which is what you do by suggesting that it's nothing but crap.

[steve_rolfeca]

There's been a lot of rhetoric and myth on this thread about what the L1 sounds like, and what it does. Here's what my four-year experience has taught me about the L1:

Any claim that all Bose products are the same, or that they all have a signature sound, is ridiculous. That argument falls apart with the advent of the L1, because prior to the L1, Bose never made anything remotely similar. Remember the deluxe home theater system they brought out in 1999, with a 7' tall line array instead of those crappy little cube satellite speakers? The Wave Radio Supreme, that reached from floor to ceiling? I didn't think so...

Ditto for the idea that Bose gave the L1 some kind of "signature clarity" by removing the midrange. Puhleaze. It's all about the midrange- a dozen small cone drivers, no crossover, no tweeters or horns... It cuts off at about 15K at the top end, and even with a non-Bose sub, a sharp high-pass filter in the system unit cuts the bass off at 38Hz. No "sparkle" at the top end? Guilty as charged. No fundamentals below a low E? Guilty again. But the midrange is the smoothest and flattest I've ever heard from a PA speaker, affordable or not.

And ditto for the idea that everything sounds the same through the L1, because of some sort of synthetic Bose DSP trickery. Really? One of my favourite demos, is to have someone plug a great acoustic with a really good pickup system, like a $5,000 Karol with a K&K Trinity, into my L1. I start with the EQ flat and the volume off, and gradually increase the volume until they just start to notice some support from the L1. As I continue to turn it up, you can see a funny look come over their face as they realize that it just sounds like the guitar, only louder. No feedback, no boom, nothing spiky or tinny...

If the system had a scooped-midrange EQ curve, piezo tweeters, or something like an Aphex Exciter built in, that demo would fall flat on its face. The system also wouldn't sound good across such a wide range of instruments. The list of instruments I've heard to date through L1's, includes steel and nylon strung acoustic guitars all the way from a 000 Martin to a jumbo-bodied Baritone, upright and grand pianos, violin, flute, vocals from a heavy baritone to an airy soprano, keyboards, Dobro, mandolin, jazz guitar...

That's not to say that everything is rosy with the L1. Some of the issues I've run into:

1. The EQ on the remote is pretty limited (I don't have the bucks to buy a ToneMatch controller), and the center frequencies on the mid and treble controls aren't appropriate for bass. If you want to dial in your slap tone, you'll need a dedicated bass preamp of some sort.

2. It's a modular system, and the processor unit tones down the tower section to match the amount of subwoofer support you have connected. On an unexpanded system, headroom can be an issue- with a single 8-ohm sub, you're limited to about 150 watts for the bass. Not the best recipe for going head-to-head with a heavy-handed drummer...

3. The clarity available from the L1 is unmatched by anything that companies like Audio Image or Euphonic Audio can offer. But other than EQ, there's no character processing available. You want a dry signal, that's surgically clean? You got it. You want SVT-style crunch, heavy compression, or a little reverb? Better dust off your pedalboard.

4. In one sense, the L1 is something of a one-trick pony. I'm convinced that it's the best sounding small-to-medium club PA solution a jazz, folk, or pop musician can have. It's almost miraculous what it can do in a badly-shaped room.

But it can't defy the laws of physics. It doesn't have enough throw to work in large halls (except as a stage monitor), and it isn't loud enough for situations where volume levels are completely out of control. Bose's whole premise with the L1, is to bring amplification back to a human scale. If your drummer looks like a gorilla yet you mic him anyway, and your guitarist has his wall of Marshalls set to "stun", you need to look elsewhere.

5. Portability is not as impressive as it used to be. Not so long ago, micro heads and Neo cabs were just a sparkle in their designers' eye. Now that you can buy a 500-watt head the size of a small book, the base section of the L1 Model 1 starts to look pretty damn porky. Which is why I now supplement my L1 with a micro rig.

6. Perhaps the biggest issue for a bass player, is the way the sound is produced.

With all those small cones, the midrange response is very fast and crisp. It brings out little nuances in your touch, in a way that can be very satisfying. I use all sorts of little percussive techniques with the L1, that don't come through my other amps. On the other hand, it doesn't hide ANYTHING, or smooth anything out. Fret rattle, sloppy dynamics, etc., sound like they're under a microscope. It can be pretty disconcerting until you get used to it, and not everyone wants to.

Also, you don't get the chest punch you get from a conventional stack. It's more like wearing studio headphones, than playing through an 8*10. With the volume set so that everyone in the hall can hear your every touch, you still hear your bass instead of feeling it.

In summary, after four years, I still constantly get comments about my rig. In all this time, I've had a few negative comments about the look, but none about the tone I'm getting. New bandmates who've never heard a Bose are always shocked at how much sound seems to be coming from that skinny black stick.

But it's still not for everybody. If your taste runs to studly tube amps like the Mesa 400+ or SVT, the Bose is not likely to be your thing. In my mind, it's not aimed at the conventional bass amp market at all. It's more likely to appeal to folks that favour rigs like the Phil Jones Suitcase, AI Clarus, etc.

[kuys]

I don't own the L1 or anything similar but I can speak from experience with their home theater systems being overpriced pieces of junk.

It's pretty amazing that they can get any bass response out of such a small package but it doesn't sound good by any stretch of the imagination. Bose, like apple, makes a good product every now and again but it's still one of those companies that you pay a huge markup for the brand name alone.

[4Mal]

I've played and sung through L1's w/tone match and L1 compacts. Personally I dislike them - a lot. I do primarily acoustic pop. Duo and trio settings. A couple of the folks that I team up with have the Bose systems so I'm kinda stuck with them. Don't have to like 'em though...

As a bass amp, even at low volume there isn't enough tone in there for me. Whenever I play through one of those, I take my small rig too.

If it's a large room, as a player it's too friggin' loud and too damned harsh to want to be near. I vastly prefer having a 10 or 12 and a horn in my face than being close to an L1.

Monitoring - on larger stages you need a bunch of them or the latency is brutal...

Single or duo, small room, acoustic guitars only, low volume - it's OK . Merely OK. I really don't like to sound that processed all the time...

3 grand for merely OK - I can get very similar performance and way more natural sound AND bass guitar support from a decent mixer and a pair of Eons or Mackies, 1 up and 1 down or just 1 up and behind.

The only thing I actually like about the Bose ? I don't have to carry PA for those gigs... If I book the gig - it's either the house system or mine.

[randommiker]

They are not pro's or do they would not be using the Bose. They maybe making a living, does not mean they know crap about "true" sound. Survey says, they buy it cause its sound good off the bat, no matter rather it sounds like "them" or not. Like it was mentioned above, Bose makes you sound un-natural.

Originally Posted by Akami

Actually it's people making a living playing who are buying them and you appear to have come to TalkBass specifically to grind your ax with Bose.
Yeah, duh dude. I don't buy things I don't like, but then I don't put out a concerted effort to bust the balls and question the sanity of those who like products I that don't like.

There's a pattern also among those elitists who feel that once they've spoken, everyone else should fall in line, which is what both of you two have and are doing. You guys don't like the Bose system, fine, but there's no need to impugn those who do, which is what you do by suggesting that it's nothing but crap.

[randommiker]

You did the most reasonable review bro. Thanks. I was jsut stating that for Acoustic and Vocals, the Fishman is all you need. Anything else would benefit the Bose.

As for the $5,000 acoustic guitar and K&K pickup, imagine what it would sound like on a Fishman Solo.

The fact behind a great musician and natural sound, revolve around the flattest freq. you can get from a P.A gear. This way you have much for room for EQ and compression with out distortion. Fishman seems to focus on the more flat req, response for a more natural sound. Bose...plays it part but i would bet my last dollar the K&K on a nice axe..would sound better and more natural on a Fishman.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

There's been a lot of rhetoric and myth on this thread about what the L1 sounds like, and what it does. Here's what my four-year experience has taught me about the L1:

Any claim that all Bose products are the same, or that they all have a signature sound, is ridiculous. That argument falls apart with the advent of the L1, because prior to the L1, Bose never made anything remotely similar. Remember the deluxe home theater system they brought out in 1999, with a 7' tall line array instead of those crappy little cube satellite speakers? The Wave Radio Supreme, that reached from floor to ceiling? I didn't think so...

Ditto for the idea that Bose gave the L1 some kind of "signature clarity" by removing the midrange. Puhleaze. It's all about the midrange- a dozen small cone drivers, no crossover, no tweeters or horns... It cuts off at about 15K at the top end, and even with a non-Bose sub, a sharp high-pass filter in the system unit cuts the bass off at 38Hz. No "sparkle" at the top end? Guilty as charged. No fundamentals below a low E? Guilty again. But the midrange is the smoothest and flattest I've ever heard from a PA speaker, affordable or not.

And ditto for the idea that everything sounds the same through the L1, because of some sort of synthetic Bose DSP trickery. Really? One of my favourite demos, is to have someone plug a great acoustic with a really good pickup system, like a $5,000 Karol with a K&K Trinity, into my L1. I start with the EQ flat and the volume off, and gradually increase the volume until they just start to notice some support from the L1. As I continue to turn it up, you can see a funny look come over their face as they realize that it just sounds like the guitar, only louder. No feedback, no boom, nothing spiky or tinny...

If the system had a scooped-midrange EQ curve, piezo tweeters, or something like an Aphex Exciter built in, that demo would fall flat on its face. The system also wouldn't sound good across such a wide range of instruments. The list of instruments I've heard to date through L1's, includes steel and nylon strung acoustic guitars all the way from a 000 Martin to a jumbo-bodied Baritone, upright and grand pianos, violin, flute, vocals from a heavy baritone to an airy soprano, keyboards, Dobro, mandolin, jazz guitar...

That's not to say that everything is rosy with the L1. Some of the issues I've run into:

1. The EQ on the remote is pretty limited (I don't have the bucks to buy a ToneMatch controller), and the center frequencies on the mid and treble controls aren't appropriate for bass. If you want to dial in your slap tone, you'll need a dedicated bass preamp of some sort.

2. It's a modular system, and the processor unit tones down the tower section to match the amount of subwoofer support you have connected. On an unexpanded system, headroom can be an issue- with a single 8-ohm sub, you're limited to about 150 watts for the bass. Not the best recipe for going head-to-head with a heavy-handed drummer...

3. The clarity available from the L1 is unmatched by anything that companies like Audio Image or Euphonic Audio can offer. But other than EQ, there's no character processing available. You want a dry signal, that's surgically clean? You got it. You want SVT-style crunch, heavy compression, or a little reverb? Better dust off your pedalboard.

4. In one sense, the L1 is something of a one-trick pony. I'm convinced that it's the best sounding small-to-medium club PA solution a jazz, folk, or pop musician can have. It's almost miraculous what it can do in a badly-shaped room.

But it can't defy the laws of physics. It doesn't have enough throw to work in large halls (except as a stage monitor), and it isn't loud enough for situations where volume levels are completely out of control. Bose's whole premise with the L1, is to bring amplification back to a human scale. If your drummer looks like a gorilla yet you mic him anyway, and your guitarist has his wall of Marshalls set to "stun", you need to look elsewhere.

5. Portability is not as impressive as it used to be. Not so long ago, micro heads and Neo cabs were just a sparkle in their designers' eye. Now that you can buy a 500-watt head the size of a small book, the base section of the L1 Model 1 starts to look pretty damn porky. Which is why I now supplement my L1 with a micro rig.

6. Perhaps the biggest issue for a bass player, is the way the sound is produced.

With all those small cones, the midrange response is very fast and crisp. It brings out little nuances in your touch, in a way that can be very satisfying. I use all sorts of little percussive techniques with the L1, that don't come through my other amps. On the other hand, it doesn't hide ANYTHING, or smooth anything out. Fret rattle, sloppy dynamics, etc., sound like they're under a microscope. It can be pretty disconcerting until you get used to it, and not everyone wants to.

Also, you don't get the chest punch you get from a conventional stack. It's more like wearing studio headphones, than playing through an 8*10. With the volume set so that everyone in the hall can hear your every touch, you still hear your bass instead of feeling it.

In summary, after four years, I still constantly get comments about my rig. In all this time, I've had a few negative comments about the look, but none about the tone I'm getting. New bandmates who've never heard a Bose are always shocked at how much sound seems to be coming from that skinny black stick.

But it's still not for everybody. If your taste runs to studly tube amps like the Mesa 400+ or SVT, the Bose is not likely to be your thing. In my mind, it's not aimed at the conventional bass amp market at all. It's more likely to appeal to folks that favour rigs like the Phil Jones Suitcase, AI Clarus, etc.

[randommiker]

Your right. America tends to buy into the labels and mark ups. Smart people know there way around this craftiness.

Originally Posted by kuys

I don't own the L1 or anything similar but I can speak from experience with their home theater systems being overpriced pieces of junk.

It's pretty amazing that they can get any bass response out of such a small package but it doesn't sound good by any stretch of the imagination. Bose, like apple, makes a good product every now and again but it's still one of those companies that you pay a huge markup for the brand name alone.

[randommiker]

I understand but... then you said Ovation, then i realized why the Fishman sounded uneasy. We have worked with Ovation, they only sound great with certain P.A's. Its the way the Ovation is designed with their personalized pickups. I like Ovation though

Originally Posted by DavidE

I've had the original Bose PAS since less than a year after they came out. I've used it very successfully with my acoustic duo and solo gigs. (guitar, two vocals). It also kills at amplifying an iPod. Never tried it as a bass amp. Tried using a pair as the main vocal p.a. for my 3 piece band and felt like they didn't cut it. Couldn't get loud enough.

I bought a Fishman soloamp to use for some solo gigs (acoustic guitar and vocals) and also tried it at duo gigs with my lead singer going through his Bose. I couldn't get the Fishman to work well. It kept distorting (with the input lights not coming on), farting out etc... It just didn't work like it should. I sent it back to Fishman and they found a couple of bad speakers and an air leak, fixed it and returned it to me. It really didn't work any better. Paled in comparison to the Bose, so I sold it.

With the bottom end of an Ovation acoustic being too much for the Fishman (and awesome through the Bose), I can't fathom the idea of putting a bass through a Fishman. It's not designed for it.

[Akami]

Originally Posted by randommiker

They are not pro's or do they would not be using the Bose. They maybe making a living, does not mean they know crap about "true" sound. Survey says, they buy it cause its sound good off the bat, no matter rather it sounds like "them" or not. Like it was mentioned above, Bose makes you sound un-natural.

What sounds un-natural is your trolling. Your idiotic statements suggest you're here simply to see how much crap you can start, or you're a Fishman plant.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Akami

What sounds un-natural is your trolling. Your idiotic statements suggest you're here simply to see how much crap you can start, or you're a Fishman plant.

Since randommiker now has a survey proving that people buy the L1 even though "they don't sound like themselves", I think I'd like to see a copy.

Oh, and now that Bose is in the personality substitution business, can I get one that makes me sound like Leland Sklar when I'm playing, and Sting when I'm singing? A Jack Bruce option would be nice for the heavier stuff, too...

[randommiker]

I am a recording engineer. I know "sound". I am loyal to Fishman on acoustic and vocals purposes in "live" settings. Bose is amazing at anything beyond that. I am not here to start crap. I base my facts off knowledge

Originally Posted by Akami

What sounds un-natural is your trolling. Your idiotic statements suggest you're here simply to see how much crap you can start, or you're a Fishman plant.

[randommiker]

Haha, i am just saying this is what i "heard" at the Bose dealership when i plugged into it. I can tell you though it sounded amazing, it did not sound close to my guitars natural tone..in which is the purpose of buying this instrument. I did not bother with vocals because i knew that since the acoustic guitar is very transparent, i could only guess what it did to vocals. I never said that it will make you sound like someone else. Where are you getting that from me?

That is the way Bose creates their gear, and to be honest its amazing an genius what they do. I simply stating the "natural" aspects of sound being commuted through sound system. Fishman comes closer but not dead. There is no Holy Grail system but i would rather stick with what was closer. You keep forgetting i am talking about acoustics and vocals alone. Dont plug no Taylor guitar into a Bose and base your opinion from there.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Since randommiker now has a survey proving that people buy the L1 even though "they don't sound like themselves", I think I'd like to see a copy.

Oh, and now that Bose is in the personality substitution business, can I get one that makes me sound like Leland Sklar when I'm playing, and Sting when I'm singing? A Jack Bruce option would be nice for the heavier stuff, too...

[randommiker]

Oh and yes, their are companies out there that can make you sound like someone else ha. Crazy i know.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Since randommiker now has a survey proving that people buy the L1 even though "they don't sound like themselves", I think I'd like to see a copy.

Oh, and now that Bose is in the personality substitution business, can I get one that makes me sound like Leland Sklar when I'm playing, and Sting when I'm singing? A Jack Bruce option would be nice for the heavier stuff, too...

[skywalkersurfs]

I've had a Bose L1 for 4 years now and I love it. I do not play my bass through it. I use it for vocals, acoustic guitars, keyboards and the kick drum. I use two of the Bose subs. I don't recommend it for use as a sole electric bass amp, I think conventional amps work/sound better for that but that is a whole other story. I think this system works great under these conditions:
1. The band members you play with, play at a reasonable volume level. If you are of the mind that playing so loud that your audience has to yell into each others ears to talk while you are playing, this is not the system for you.
2. The venue you play at is an average size bar, not an arena or auditorium. Large venues require large systems, not something portable.

The long and short of this IMO is if you want a portable "pro" sounding p.a. for playing small/medium size venues, this is a great piece of equipment. I think it's a great bang for the buck for this category too. I have the tonematch mixer/effects processor too. I think it sounds great and I really like having it mounted to my mic stand for convenience. I think most people who don't like the Bose p.a. are looking for ear splitting volume/sound, something I don't consider to be "pro" sound.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by randommiker

...I never said that it will make you sound like someone else. Where are you getting that from me?

...You keep forgetting i am talking about acoustics and vocals alone. Dont plug no Taylor guitar into a Bose and base your opinion from there.

Sorry, my friend. Your argumentative comments and put-downs were starting to take the thread in an ugly direction. I was simply trying to make a joke to lighten the mood. As in, "if it doesn't sound like my guitar, can it at least make me sound like someone famous?"

And as to the second sentence in the snippet above, nobody forgot anything. The purpose of these threads is to answer the original poster's questions, not to provide you with a platform to rant about your pet peeves.

In this case, the OP wanted to know how the Fishman stacked up to competing systems from a general point of view, NOT "acoustics and vocals alone". In followup post #8, the OP (who is a bassist) specifically asked whether a prototype from another company had enough low end for electric bass, and how it compared to the Fishman and the L1.

It's the OP's thread. His question, his rules.

FYI, it's considered bad forum etiquette to hijack other people's threads for your purposes. If you want to start a separate "Fishman Rules", or a "Bose Sucks" thread, you are perfectly entitled to do so. Just call it what it is, and stop wasting everyone else's bandwidth...

[Akami]

Originally Posted by randommiker

I am a recording engineer. I know "sound". I am loyal to Fishman on acoustic and vocals purposes in "live" settings. Bose is amazing at anything beyond that. I am not here to start crap. I base my facts off knowledge

Your posting method, coupled with the fact that you've chosen only this thread to post in since joining TalkBass a few days ago doesn't support your claim, but it's if true that you're not here to start crap then you might alter your stance a bit and quit insulting the rest of us.

You may be an engineer, but the rest of us are musicians and for you to suggest that your opinion on tonality is superior to that of those of us who like the L1 systems is annoying in the least and your arrogance in stating such would make me steer very clear of any studio with you in it.

You can be as loyal as you like to Fishman without making claims that none of us using the Bose systems professionally are professional, and to do so is very unprofessional on your part. The Bose L1's do a very good job with both acoustic guitar and vocals and that is a fact. It may not be your cup of tea, but your opinion that they suck is nothing more than your opinion.

[randommiker]

As for staying away from my studio, that if fine man. Because most the work in studios these days, revolve around the credit given the producer. Studio work is not the way it use to be. Everything then was "natural" sounding and not fake sounding composed to today. Here and there you will find some studios that care less for advancements in technology these days and go back to the basics in recording engineering.

As for coming across with my opinions: I am very sorry for my bluntness. I read my latest statements and i have to say wow..i was a jerk. At the time i was on very heavy medication (allergy infections) which made me very ambiguous to even myself. I am very sorry for my lame talk.

As for the Bose L1: I am getting another run at it next weekend. Evidently, it was a issue with the natural side of things for some reviews that demo it here in my city. Then again, they are just other opinions. I for one, want a system that will give my guitar and vocals justice. I have a feeling the L1 can do this with some post eq maybe by another separate piece of gear.

Again, sorry for my attitude post comments.

[DavidE]

Originally Posted by randommiker

I understand but... then you said Ovation, then i realized why the Fishman sounded uneasy. We have worked with Ovation, they only sound great with certain P.A's. Its the way the Ovation is designed with their personalized pickups. I like Ovation though

But I also tried the Soloamp with two Taylors and a Martin, all equipped with Factory Fishman pickup systems AND a Taylor GSMS with an aftermarket Fishman Matrix Infinity system and those all caused problems as well. The Soloamp just did not pass muster for me. My Shure SM58 and Beta 58A also caused distortion through it. It simply did not work nearly as well as the Bose which was really too bad because I wanted to use the Fishman for some solo gigs.