Cabs and Live Sound

manmountain8 · #1 05-08-2008, 10:57 PM

It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

amos · #2 05-09-2008, 02:58 AM

Some of it is the soundguy, some of it is the system, size of the room, and some of it is your EQ. I never boost sub-bass frequencies. Set it flat then it should be less of an issue.

manmountain8 · #3 05-11-2008, 05:25 PM

I actually have 60, 250, and 1000 hz set less than flat at about 25%, and the treble set flat. Sometimes I turn up the 1000 hz . It has good presence and bite through my cab, but still comes through much bassier in the PA. If I turn the bass down anymore it loses all bass. Maybe I just need to boost the hi mids a little more. This is a very different EQ setup with my T-40 than I used to use with my Jazz bass which needed the bass at about 70%.

**baba** · #4 05-12-2008, 10:40 AM

I just boost my mids a bit so I can cut through and at least hear myself on stage. Other than that, I pray the FOH engineer knows what he's doing.

hockey_head · #5 05-13-2008, 05:25 PM

the old shool rule of thumb for sound guys is to lock the bass guitar to the kick drum. if the system is three-way or four-way utilizing folded or bent horn subs, it will be "thick" and bassy indoors. the same type system will be far flatter sounding outdoors.
I like to try to limit the locking of bg to kick drum to the lo b and e string areas frequencywise.

Jonesy4fnk · #6 05-28-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

I just boost my mids a bit so I can cut through and at least hear myself on stage. Other than that, I pray the FOH engineer knows what he's doing.

Hey Andy!

The midrange bite for stage monitoring is why I find the Schroeder 1212R cab so nice. It has a natural mid bump, that is so controversial here on TB. But this situation is exactly why its nice. I keep my tone path/EQ the same (to front house) and the Schoeder's naturally bump my mids onstage. Best of both worlds.

**baba** · #7 05-28-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonesy4fnk

Hey Andy!

The midrange bite for stage monitoring is why I find the Schroeder 1212R cab so nice. It has a natural mid bump, that is so controversial here on TB. But this situation is exactly why its nice. I keep my tone path/EQ the same (to front house) and the Schoeder's naturally bump my mids onstage. Best of both worlds.

Yo Jonesy! I'd love to try that Schroeder out some time. Also need to get out to a Telesma show soon.

amos · #8 05-28-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey_head

the old shool rule of thumb for sound guys is to lock the bass guitar to the kick drum. if the system is three-way or four-way utilizing folded or bent horn subs, it will be "thick" and bassy indoors. the same type system will be far flatter sounding outdoors.
I like to try to limit the locking of bg to kick drum to the lo b and e string areas frequencywise.

+1

Jonesy4fnk · #9 05-29-2008, 11:49 AM

yeah man, anytime you want to check it out, I have 2

I think Telesma will be coming through Annapolis on June 27th, at the Whiskey.

peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

Yo Jonesy! I'd love to try that Schroeder out some time. Also need to get out to a Telesma show soon.

OtterOnBass · #10 05-29-2008, 09:25 PM

If you have the chance i.e. the soundguy's not too busy and your band's not running late, invite him onstage. Say, "Hey can I get you help with my tone. Other soundguys have had a hard time nailing this, do you think you can get this sound (in front of the amp) out there?"

Be nice and get there early enough to get to know the guy and good luck.

rodl2005 · #11 05-30-2008, 05:18 AM

+1. Are U DI-ing or mic-ing the abss sound?

CapnSev · #12 06-03-2008, 05:24 PM

Mic your amp. The soundguy will still EQ his way, but he'll never be totally able to dial out "your" sound completely.

fokof · #13 06-06-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manmountain8

It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

Bass cabs and bass amps in general are atrocious reference , try to listen to a well mixed CD through your bass amp , very bad ain't it ?

So since your reference (bass amp) is not a good reference , you'll NEVER have the same sound in the FOH.
Even if the soundman only uses a mic , the room, reflections, stage noise , other equipement will make it sound different. It's impossible to duplicate a bass amp sound exaclty as it is in a PA due to reference and physics.

OtterOnBass · #14 06-07-2008, 01:02 PM

The point of this thread is reproducing the tone created by the amp, not by the bass guitar. The OP wants the color from his rig in the front of house.

BTW, CD's sound fine through my bi-amped combo with a bullet tweeter. Through the beginner's level Fender sealed 10-inch combo with CD-inputs, it indeed sounds atrocious - too much bass.

**Stumbo** · #15 06-07-2008, 01:11 PM

IME, most SE's don't care about "your tone". They get paid to do the "mix" and since they're the pros (at least in their eyes), whatever you say is ignored.

Recently I spoke with a bass player letting him know that the bass sound/tone out front was overpowering everything else. He said "It's the sound guy". My bass on stage is fine. Go talk to him".

fokof · #16 06-09-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

The point of this thread is reproducing the tone created by the amp, not by the bass guitar. The OP wants the color from his rig in the front of house.

Yeah , you are right.
I forgot to insert " with a DI" somewhere in my post....

TimmyP · #17 06-29-2008, 04:45 AM

That overly thick sound is from your amp - it has a lot more boom in the room than it does on stage. Unless the bass rig is adjusted for how it sounds in the house (IF the rig has the appropriate EQ, which most do not), there's always a range of bass frequencies that are too hot in the room even when that range is pulled completely out of the bass channel of the PA.

Gearhead17 · #18 06-29-2008, 11:04 AM

Good points here. Definitely try talking to the sound guy about micing your rig to get the attack of it. Might want to mic the GK 210 - that cab should have more midrange attack than the Ampeg 410HLF. I would suggest sending a DI signal and a miced signal to the sound guy, mic for attack and mids mainly while the DI does mainly the lows and low mids.

Not to hijack the thread, but do most soundguys realize that bass guitar tones don't all sound like a booming muddy mess? And what in the heck is up with turning the bass guitar down generally in the mix by sound guy's? I know we are not the lead instrument, but our tone carries a song and we need to be at a good volume to have the band sound good.

TimmyP · #19 06-29-2008, 02:38 PM

Micing will give the character of the rig, but the DI will better give the attack and articulation.

I think the booming muddy mess problem is that when they turn the bass up in the PA it adds to the already too much boom from the bass rig, and many don't seem to know that they can use those little faucets on the board to remove the boomy frequencies from the bass channel and to add growl and/ or bite to the bass channel. But, if there is already too much of something in the room from the bass rig, they cannot cure the problem, only try to fill in the missing bits and hope the end result is not too loud for the mix.

ihateusernames · #20 06-29-2008, 04:14 PM

If you are constantly working with an 'engineer' who insists on boosting the lows and scooping out the mids it might be a good idea to buy a filter of some sort to cut most of those frequencies out of whatever signal you are sending to the board. You can't add in what isn't there. A lot of sound guys are abusive with compression and sonic enhancers which sometimes don't work well when you are sending anything other than DI from the bass. Actually, in the wrong hands, those tools don't work well at all.

I recently stopped trying to get my stage tone out to the board and went back to a SA bass driver for DI. I put it after my OD, Dist, and effects so they still get in the mix. It's not as angry and aggressive as the tone on stage with two blended preamps, but it's closer to what we want as a band than a simple DI with no sort of emulation.

In the last two years (DI from stage rig) I've received a few compliments on playing but never had anyone mention tone. Last night was the first time in well over a year that I went back to the bass driver. Strangly enough there were three 'great tone' comments from the crowd on break and a even a 'how are you getting that?' from a fellow bass player. Even though the band and I believe the bass tone at FOH has been good until making the re-switch, this tells me a lot. I just wish there was a GK800 version of the Sansamp products, I love that sound and only enjoy the Ampeg type of tone.