Can you hear yourself onstage?

Sleeping Giant · #1 08-03-2011, 08:28 AM

I have been doing approx 140 gigs a year for the past 15 years and have always found it a struggle to hear myself on stage. Sure there is a kind of bottom end rumble but I cannot hear the tonality in the note or clarity in the rhythm. When I kneel down and listen close to the speaker the sound is excellent. As soon as I stand up it disappears.

Our singer has just been told by her docter she has the beginnings of a problem on her vocal chords due to straining too much. Our guitarist (who likes to put solos in inappropriate places) likes a lot of bottom end in his sound. Recently during a sound check the landlord of the pub came to us and said the bass was too loud. My bass amp wasn't switched on! It was the guitarist and he still refuses to accept there is too much low end in his sound.

I also have a problem explaining to other members of the band that I cannot hear what I am playing. And they tell me I'm too loud.

Any advise from you guys would be appreciated.

klejst · #2 08-03-2011, 08:40 AM

At the venues and places I have played in the past I have never really had too much of a problem hearing myself, of course we use a metronome and as long as I can hear the drummer too I know exactly what part of the song we are at and what I should be playing at all times. I have a great rig and generally play DI'ed through the PA, even though my rig can also handle without PA support. We are a original rock band and we like to play loud and the guitarists like distortion and I too love the grungy edge we throw on it too. Not sure what rig you use, but perhaps prop it up somehow? The thing is the guitarist needs to understand your problem you are having, if not I would talk to your other members about it. Another little trick I do sometimes at practicing is putting ear buds in my ears and it seems to block out a lot of sound and noise, however the bass is always more apparent. Works for me.

dvh · #3 08-03-2011, 08:43 AM

This has been going on for 15 years? The same guitarist? The thing that has to change is him but with that long an issue it will probably be next to impossible now. One possibility is for all of you to use ear monitors.

Your patience and tolerance is remarkable. Not being able to hear myself clearly is a gig joy killer for me. So, I do all I can to avoid that situation….

3tsb · #4 08-03-2011, 08:43 AM

Shure PSM200 + Alien Ears 3 driver in-ear monitors = No more going to sleep with ringing and control of what I want to hear.

MNAirHead · #5 08-03-2011, 08:46 AM

are you guys running without a sound guy?

packhowitzer · #6 08-03-2011, 08:54 AM

I can usually hear myself, but I take 8 10s and either an svt4 or svt2 to almost every gig. I understand what you mean by having your tone/volume disappear as you move your head away from the speakers though. Your rig's speakers are competing with a lot of ambient noise filling up the room you are playing in. Even though you're hopefully behind the PA speakers, sound is still bouncing off the walls at you and then there is your guitarist...
Obviously (like kljest suggested) moving your speakers closer to your ears would help. 140 gigs per year would also probably justify an investment in some quality in ear monitors. That would allow you to have the ability to hear only the sounds you want. I don't have the luxury of using them, but many here do, and I'm sure you could get some advise on brands and adjusting to using them.

Sleeping Giant · #7 08-03-2011, 08:56 AM

We put just the bass drum and vocals through the pa. The drummer does the mix as he has alot more experience of this than us. I play the drums for the soundcheck and when we play the first song of the set the guitarist goes out front and listens to the mix (he has a wireless system). I don't trust his ears. I can't afford a wireless system but If I could I think it would just cause an argument as I would tell the guitarist he's too loud and he would say I am :-(
If I had IEMs the mix from the desk would be no good as not all instruments are going through it. If I ran them from my amp that would cause me problems hearing everyone else wouldn't it? I don't know I have never used them.

The reason we put up with the guitarist is that he books all the gigs and he's very good at it.

staindbass · #8 08-03-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3tsb

Shure PSM200 + Alien Ears 3 driver in-ear monitors = No more going to sleep with ringing and control of what I want to hear.

listen to a true pro- roscoe says in ears are like playing through a transistor radio, pretty much as i imagine it would. if his guitarist has too much bass, in ears will sound even more like a transistor radio. half of a bass sound it felt, not heard. ‪Gear run with bass player Roscoe Beck (Leonard Cohen)‬&rlm; - YouTube

F-Clef-Jef · #9 08-03-2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staindbass

listen to a true pro- roscoe says in ears are like playing through a transistor radio, pretty much as i imagine it would. if his guitarist has too much bass, in ears will sound even more like a transistor radio. half of a bass sound it felt, not heard. ‪Gear run with bass player Roscoe Beck (Leonard Cohen)‬&rlm; - YouTube

My in-ear setup sounds nothing like a transistor radio (it's by far the best I've ever been able to hear myself and everyone else).

Roscoe needs to learn how to use in-ears...

meycom · #10 08-03-2011, 09:48 AM

IEM's are the answer ... we used to have all kinds of issues with stage volume, hearing one another. Sennheiser ew300 IEM G3's solved the issue. Once I bought them, the guitar player did too. Since we use wireless(ew 572 G3) for our instruments having the IEM's was the last piece of the puzzle.

**jmattbassplaya** · #11 08-03-2011, 09:51 AM

Guitarist never seem to understand the difference between a bedroom tone and an in-the-mix tone.

It's funny. I was in a band about a two years ago with a killer guitarist. He was a monster player and had a sick solo tone, but he used way too much bass in his signal. I told him to cut back because it would make our mix sound better but he was always reluctant and said I was being too picky.

Fast forward to a month ago. I haven't played with the guy in about a year, but we met up at a bar for drinks and got to talking. I was asking him what his setup was and he went through the normal spiel and told me how he was playing with some really high class musicians these days. Then out of no where he goes, "Oh! I also started figuring out live sounds and my keys player recently told me to cut bass out of my tone for the mix. I started doing it and it really helps our band breath and it opens up some space in the music. You should try to it in your band."

I starting falling out because I had told him that exact same thing two years before!

bassbrad · #12 08-03-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Giant

When I kneel down and listen close to the speaker the sound is excellent. As soon as I stand up it disappears.

Raise your speaker closer ear level on a stand or other equipment or don't stand so close to your amp. Sorry no suggestion about the guitardovolumejunkie.

Craig_S · #13 08-03-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staindbass

listen to a true pro- roscoe says in ears are like playing through a transistor radio

Only because his "rig" uses an isolation cab and no other cabs. If you are still able to feel the bass from your rig, it's not like a transistor radio at all. It allows for cleaner sound, a quieter stage and a better overall mix.

robass · #14 08-03-2011, 10:36 AM

best solution - get in-ears with just yourself in the mix, and just use one, in the ear that generally faces away from the drummer. You dont even need a feed from FOH, just take a line out from your amp.

next best solution - get a small combo amp or powered stage wedge (to use in addition to your regular rig) that you can get at ear level - either on top of your amp or on a stand. Keep in mind this combo amp doesn't have to be able to produce "your" sound, just be able to give you enough low-mids and hi-mids so that you can hear the articulation. Thats the key - hearing the mids - although not always the pleasant part of bass sound, its what provides the articulation.

cheers!

carl h. · #15 08-03-2011, 10:37 AM

Eq yourself up into the guitar range and let him have the bass range. When the band complains the bass is funky, tell them they're hearing the guitar. You couldn't hear yourself since he was in your frequency range so you went to an unused range so you didn't have to kill them with your volume. When he moves back out of the bass range, you will go back.

EricssonB · #16 08-03-2011, 10:39 AM

Word on that story. I play at the Chapel on the AFB I live on that has electronic keys, an acoustic, me on bass and a rotation group of singers.

I play out of my amp and FOH and everybody else goes through FOH and wedges. I don't even have a wedge on my side of the stage -- I don't care what everybody else is doing provided I can hear the percussive tone of the keys.

I WAS GETTING LOST IN THE MIX.

Not long after I started playing there I read a thread that talked about keys having a heavy left-hand getting all up in my frequencies. With that in mind, I said to the sound guy, "hey, could you roll down the low EQ on Neal's keyboard?"

Been nothing but clear tones since then.

stingraysvt · #17 08-03-2011, 11:02 AM

I had the same problem using 410 cabs, I couldn't hear myself onstage like I wanted to, I would ultimately end up too loud in the house at the volume I would feel comfortable with onstage.

So I borrowed a friend's dual 112 EA rig and I was so clear onstage, I could even tilt the cabs back to gain even more vertical coverage. At the end of the night after being happy with my sound onstage, I asked the sound guy how my volume was and he said I had some room to turn up if I wanted to!!!

My suggestion aside from the same rig I have would try a different rig speaker wise, 410's didn't cut it for me, but 112's seemed to give the the bottom end, Tone and Volume I needed onstage and be a great compromise on house volume.

Ears also saved my hearing, once I got used to ears and learned how to run them I was gold!

I would start with my vocal at a level I could hear over the -15 to -20db bleed I was getting from the drums/guitar onstage and get my bass in there where it sounded good and felt comfortable.

I found this to be the best way to do ears, use them more as ear plugs and to compensate for what you need to hear the most, your vocals and your bass, on larger stages I would add a few other things but less was really more!

And tell your guitar player to shut up and turn down his low end, that's your sonic space and he needs to lighten up and share it. Tell him to crank it up all he wants at home but the lows are for the BASS!!! If he refuses, tell him to play all the bass parts and you'll find a new band.

Getting a good sound guy to reinforce this will help too! nothing like an outside opinion to solve a squabble!

Sleeping Giant · #18 08-03-2011, 11:03 AM

Thanks for your help.

The thing about lifting the speakers higher up on something loses the bass resonance with the floor.

Sometimes the stages are very small and there is just about enough room for all of us. an extra wedge for me would be difficult to accomodate.

Frequency bleed across instruments is a sure way to mush up a band's sound. I have talked to the guitarist about this but he considers himself a consummate musician of the highest calibre with knowledge to match because drunks stagger over to him after gigs and tell him he's amazing.

Hoffman6000 · #19 08-03-2011, 11:07 AM

Not everything that goes through your mixer has to go to front of house....You could set up an ambience mic on stage and send it to your In-Ears only and not to FOH, allowing you to control the volume of the band as well as your bass. This is assuming there is a free Aux send.

Using just one ear in and one ear out is EXTREMELY damaging to your hearing and extended usage can result in more than just hearing loss. (Your physical balance is controlled by your ears)

In-Ears are your solution, but if you say you can't afford a wireless for your bass, you probably can't afford an IEM and ear-buds either...so sell stuff you own that isn't your passion, allowing you to enjoy your passion for playing bass.

How about hiring a sound man for one gig? Having an outside opinion trusted by the guitar player might change his mind. If he corrects his eq problem then repeatedly comment how good his tone is that night.
Maybe he'll leave it alone...
If he doesn't change, then when he's not looking open up his speaker cabinet and rewire it to be out of phase! That will fix your problem for good! haha....

Sleeping Giant · #20 08-03-2011, 11:48 AM

Getting in a sound man he trusts would be tricky. I haven't known this guy to trust anyone more than himself.

Why is it all sound engineers want the bass to go DI but will mic up the guitar? Is it because they don't trust the bass player to come up with a good sound?
On the back of my Trace Elliott I have 2 DI outputs one pre eq and the other post eq. The engineers will never take the post eq feed. At the time they haven't heard me play so couldn't know if I have a great sound or not.

At one gig a few years ago I snuck around the back of my amp and switched outputs before the soundcheck. Afterwards the engineer was so happy with the bass sound he had set up for me...