Competing with guitarist

Vendele197 · #1 09-29-2009, 02:23 PM

Recently my guitarist upgraded his rig to a Peavey tube head (not sure on the model) and a matching 4x12 cabinet. Just like all guitarists, he likes to play pretty loud and expects me to keep up.

Currently I am playing through a GK Backline 600/Acoustic B410 setup and am finding myself cranking up the volume to even match my guitarist's level. I guess my question is this: with my current setup, should I have to be pushing so hard? Knowing that it takes a lot more power to amplify bass frequencies and that 4 12s move a lot more air than 4 10s, I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes".

That being said, are their any tips or tricks to help me compete with his volume (other than telling him to turn down; pretty sure we all know how difficult that is)? How heavily should I rely on a PA vs. my own stage amp for overall volume?

DeluxeRed · #2 09-29-2009, 02:41 PM

If you're running with a "real" PA, your amp becomes primarily your stage monitor for yourself, within what you need it to do to produce the signal going to the board (ie, if you have to crank it to get your sound into a mic, etc.). So for the house, you should really rely entirely on the PA, and stage-bleed is bad.

Other than bigger is better, which you know, you don't need to get your gp to turn down, you need to get him to stay out of your frequency range. Tell him his new amp has more bottom than the old one, and he needs to EQ some of it out so that he is sitting above your tone, not overlapping the same space. You'll stand out more and the whole thing will sound better.

Then go get a much bigger amp and blow him away...

mpm32 · #3 09-29-2009, 02:56 PM

Or get a 2x15 maybe.

robd · #4 09-29-2009, 03:22 PM

DeluxeRed · #5 09-29-2009, 03:29 PM

Going OT just a bit...I was reading a deal where power soaks are going to be obsolete. They've developed a speaker that uses an electromagnet instead of a permanent magnet. So, by controlling the voltage going to that coil, you can control how powerful the speaker is, without changing what the amp "sees".

I thought it sounded pretty slick!

Jehos · #6 09-29-2009, 03:36 PM

A bassist *can* win a volume war (easily) due to the fact that you can go preamp -> power amp -> however many cabs you can afford. He's stuck buying a stack at a time due to his dinky 100W tube power section being essential to his "tone". Get yourself a few thousand watts into a 2x18" sub and a couple 4x10 cabs and make your band deaf and your guitarist cry.

That said, volume wars are dumb. It doesn't matter that he bought a crappy Peavey half-stack. He shouldn't be using it to carry the house and he should be keeping his stage volume down. So effectively, he bought himself a heavy mostly-useless prop for the stage. Get him to turn down. If that doesn't work, sneak into the practice room and replace his output tubes with lower powered ones, or disconnect 3 of his 4 12's.

jaywa · #7 09-29-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehos

If that doesn't work, sneak into the practice room and... disconnect 3 of his 4 12's.

LOL! Win.

TundraBooking · #8 09-29-2009, 07:45 PM

Since you head doesn't have enough balls to push your 4x10 and 1x15.
Either get a 1x15 and a tube head.
OR

Trade in your 4x10 and get a 2x10 and a 1x15 Cab. Put the 2x10 on bottom. Your bass will be full and the 15" will give you clarity and volume.

groove pump · #9 10-01-2009, 09:44 AM

That sucks!

Your guitarist plays in a more audible sound range and could probably blow everyone away with a 50 watt amp and a single 12" speaker - I doubt that this is any revelation. No need to compete. If you do, there's an pretty good chance that your show will go to crap.

If you're lucky, the rest of your crew will also prefer to hear each other and want to preserve some sort of useful stage volume. My drummer does some of our singing, but he also needs to hear my rig. I usually run without PA help and cozy up next to him, but our diva out in front only has her monitor, so she's the first one to shoot the looks when the guitars start going for "awesome!".

Hang in there!

ga_edwards · #10 10-01-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groove pump

That sucks!

Your guitarist plays in a more audible sound range and could probably blow everyone away with a 50 watt amp and a single 12" speaker - I doubt that this is any revelation. No need to compete. If you do, there's an pretty good chance that your show will go to crap.

If you're lucky, the rest of your crew will also prefer to hear each other and want to preserve some sort of useful stage volume. My drummer does some of our singing, but he also needs to hear my rig. I usually run without PA help and cozy up next to him, but our diva out in front only has her monitor, so she's the first one to shoot the looks when the guitars start going for "awesome!".

Hang in there!

+1. You shouldn't be competing, you're on the same team.

**Stumbo** · #11 10-02-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendele197

Just like all guitarists, he likes to play pretty loud and expects me to keep up.

Keep up with what? Ear bleeding, undecipherable crap tone?

Hence, the genesis of the term "guitard".

kalle74 · #12 10-03-2009, 06:12 AM

Just get 4-8 SVT cabs, and 4-8 kilowatts of poweramps to go with them. This would definetely solve the issue. However, it would be the wrong way of correcting the situation...

The problem lies at the guitarist´s end, not yours. Tell him not to play too loud.

Vendele197 · #13 10-03-2009, 06:23 PM

Heading off to band practice now. I'm going to start with the EQ suggestion. I discussed it with my singer last night and we both thought it made perfect sense. Hopefully that'll solve the problem.

TimmyP · #14 10-05-2009, 02:36 AM

Your guitarist is ****ing the band and the audience. The 4x12 is the worst possible choice for small venues. The highs shoot straight out like a flashlight beam. You think it's loud where you are standing? It's much louder and brighter out in the crowd where the cabinet is pointed. Plus, since there are four speakers sharing the power, the amp has to be really cranked in order for each speaker to get enough power to make it start breaking up and get "the sound". A single speaker with a Weber Beam Blocker is the way to go in almost any situation.

sonic assassin · #15 10-06-2009, 01:28 AM

on similar lines, i had to re-EQ my bassists rig (yea.. im a guitard too) to better fit the practice room. cut a bunch of sub low and used the low mid as low and the high mid as note articulation. all of a sudden we can hear everything a million times better.

have him cut lows (i know i do) and emphasize your midrange. share sonic space. share. or you'll be put in time out

Greevus · #16 10-06-2009, 01:32 AM

After 20 years of playing, here's the answer. GET an Ampeg Classic 300 watt tube head and a Fridge 8 x 10 cabinet. It will CUT through your guitarist's soul and thump his guts. Plus it looks COOL as can possibly be. Yeah it's expensive but it's worth it. I got a head for $800 on Ebay and a brand new cab there also for $630. Best bass investment I've made.

TimmyP · #17 10-06-2009, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greevus

After 20 years of playing, here's the answer. GET an Ampeg Classic 300 watt tube head and a Fridge 8 x 10 cabinet. It will CUT through your guitarist's soul and thump his guts. Plus it looks COOL as can possibly be. Yeah it's expensive but it's worth it. I got a head for $800 on Ebay and a brand new cab there also for $630. Best bass investment I've made.

Except then the guitarist and the bassist will be ****ing the band and the audience.

Jehos · #18 10-06-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greevus

After 20 years of playing, here's the answer. GET an Ampeg Classic 300 watt tube head and a Fridge 8 x 10 cabinet. It will CUT through your guitarist's soul and thump his guts. Plus it looks COOL as can possibly be. Yeah it's expensive but it's worth it. I got a head for $800 on Ebay and a brand new cab there also for $630. Best bass investment I've made.

Does that rig come with free chiropractic visits, or are those extra?

I'll stick with my Markbass 3/4 stack. I can carry (not wheel, carry) the whole thing in one trip.

NGL · #19 10-07-2009, 12:37 AM

Trust me, I know your pain. My guitarist runs a Marshall 100 watt tube head through a 4x12 and to get his tone he has to be loud as hell. It's pretty annoying, and we all constantly ask him to turn down. While competing generally proves to do no less than ruin speakers and eardrums, there is no sense in not giving everybody their own fare space in the mix. One thing that took me a while to get used to was solo tone vs group tone. If I'm playing by myself then the lows are up, the mids are down, and the highs are somewhere in the middle. But when it comes to a group situation, I pull the lows way back and use the mids to carry me. Up close it doesn't sound quite like I like it, but when I get to where all the parts blend together, I notice I can hear myself a lot better, and the tone is pretty nice. (That and I run 2 2x15 cabs now at practice.)

BigMac5 · #20 10-07-2009, 08:45 AM