compression through PA

mcapote · #1 01-08-2011, 10:35 PM

How do you guys use compression? individual instruments or the entire PA? if individual instruments you use it on all instruments and voice or certain items? and if over everything you using 1 setting for everything? I know i like some compression in my bass to even out some notes that my spector tends to over compensate for, I also like the it on drums. trying to figure out how others do it to look at what options i go with.

T-Bird · #2 01-09-2011, 12:28 AM

Hi.

I use compression on individual channels.

The order for me is:

Lead vocal(s)
Bass drum
Bass
Snare
Vocals
Mic'ed keys
Guitars

Mostly the compression is to enhance dynamics (and levelling out crappy singers), but also for protecting gear with the limiter function that can be found on most of the compressors, at least on the budget ones I tend to use.

It's very easy to over-compress, so it takes a lot of experience to be able to compress without signal quality reduction.

Regards
Sam

Vinny D · #3 01-09-2011, 08:18 AM

I basically only provide sound on the local bar scene.
I use the *keep it simple* method as much as possible, I see way too many people trying to do to much with what should be a simple straight forward mix and doing nothing but making it worse with too many gadgets in the mix.
The only thing I run compression on is the bass guitar.
I find it's the only thing that seems to be all over the place in the mix from song to song.
If drums are tuned properly, they will sound fine with just some good mic's and basic EQ tweaks.
Good mic's and mic placement will provide far better results then adding gadgets to try and fix what probably isn't broken in the first place.

walker rosewood · #4 01-09-2011, 12:31 PM

^^^ I agree about 90%. That's all good advice, but on the other hand gates and comps can be your friend too. A lead vocal with a nice 4:1 comp, an expander/gate with a key filter to keep out the cymbals and junk, a good hall reverb, and a little slapback delay... is butter. Especially on female vocals.

It does depend on the situation, gear, and user ability. I also do local bar scene stuff and most places have crappy mics, crappy PA's, crappy consoles, and crappy outboard gear. In that case for sure, less is more.

I try to always compress any vocals. If understood and used correctly it helps get them on top of the mix (i.e. guitarists who crank their halfstacks, bassists who crank their 8x10's, and drummers who hit too hard in a tiny club). I think most bassists already have a compressor in their signal chain via a pedal, preamp, etc. At least more so then other instruments.

walker rosewood · #5 01-09-2011, 12:34 PM

also, I just read through the manual for a presonus Studiolive 24 (digital console) it's got a nice section in there about comps/gates etc and how to use them.

http://www.presonus.com/media/manual...dbuch_DE_1.pdf

Section 8.2 Even if I'm familiar with the gear already, I like reading manuals because of stuff like this.

walterw · #6 01-09-2011, 01:03 PM

in small, loud bars, compressing vocals is key, so they can stay loud enough without getting too loud.

i wouldn't compress other instruments so much, unless it was a really big PA in a really big room.

i'd avoid comping the entire mix unless you had a really nice compressor; they're not "free", in that they change the tone a bit.

even then, the mix sounds more natural without it, and if the loudest thing (the vocals) are already comped, there's no need.

mcapote · #7 01-09-2011, 05:00 PM

yeah this is local bar scene, bands use their own PAs in the bars. I pretty much have been doing it all on my own, with not much help from other bands locally, so trying to learn as much as I can as i go. seems like local guys love hiding their PA racks like its the golden egg or something.

walker rosewood · #8 01-09-2011, 06:17 PM

Trade secrets are self preservation.

(dey turk er jerbs!)

mcapote · #9 01-09-2011, 06:24 PM

ehh i never been one to do that, I help fellow musicians out if i can. let my playing speak for itself.

walterw · #10 01-09-2011, 10:26 PM

compressing an entire mix is bad because when the loudest thing gets loud, the rest of the mix drops down in volume (it's called "pumping" or "breathing", and it sounds weird).

compressing vocals is good, but the problem becomes "how?" if you insert a compressor into a vocal channel on your bar band PA, you'll also be compressing the monitors for that channel. this is bad, as it causes feedback and blown-out voices.

one trick is to pan all the vocals into a subgroup or over to one side of the main out, then insert the compressor on the group. that comps all the vocals, without compromising the monitors.

the other trick (if you have the channels to spare) is to get XLR splitters, and put each vocal into two channels on the board. one channel gets the comp inserted and just goes to the mains, while the other channel is just used for monitor sends.

mcapote · #11 01-10-2011, 07:07 AM

right now i think the most important is my bass and the drummer, they both seem to peak in weird parts some songs. as for multiple channels, we already are running short of XLR inputs, we might end up looking to do some sort of 2nd mixer maybe for drums so we go all drums into 2 ports of the main mixer or something. when they were buying the mixer i told em get a 24 port and of course they rather save a couple hundred up front and bought a 16 now we need about 18 for the current arrangement LOL and we are talking about getting a 2nd guitard or a keyboardist. anyways thanks for the advice on the compression. the books Ive been reading didn't really go much into compression other than compression basics, not really implementation in real world.

Samsound · #12 01-10-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walterw

compressing an entire mix is bad because when the loudest thing gets loud, the rest of the mix drops down in volume (it's called "pumping" or "breathing", and it sounds weird).

Sure, if ya do it wrong. A nice slow attack and release, threshold right across the top, and a low ratio helps glue everything together without reacting to fast transients. That said, really uneven performers will make this harder to set just right if you don't also have track compression going, too.

TimmyP · #13 01-10-2011, 08:24 PM

Vocalists are the most inconsistent volume-wise, so that's where my first compressor channels go. After that it's whatever needs damage control (keys with patch volumes all over the place? guitar with patch volumes all over the place? bass with some hot notes?). I almost never compress the kick or anything else on the kit (except the overheads, on those exceedingly rare shows on which I can actually make use of them).

Rick Brienzo · #14 01-10-2011, 08:24 PM

Compression is like salt. If you can taste it, it's to much.

Live in a small club it's good for evening out a vocalist that can't work the mic properly or a guitar player with uneven levels for clean and dirty. If the bass is in the mix at all it can help smooth out some loud notes. Most of the time I see compression being overused by sound guys. I see no reason to put compression on a drummer that is beating the crap out of his drums every single hit, all night long. Their is no reason to take something with absolutely no dynamics and make it less dynamic.

I usually start with a ratio in the range of 2:1 or 4:1 with the threshold just bumping a bit.

You got to watch it with a singer. Smashing a vocalist is the worst because it will make all the cymbal/drum bleed louder in his or her mic. Ya gota hate those cymbals right behind the singers head all night.

Samsound · #15 01-10-2011, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Brienzo

You got to watch it with a singer. Smashing a vocalist is the worst because it will make all the cymbal/drum bleed louder in his or her mic. Ya gota hate those cymbals right behind the singers head all night.

Especially ones who barely manage to whimper into the mic. What a PITA. Even worse than the ones who whimper at soundcheck and turn into screaming banshees at GO time.

pasco jacorius · #16 01-11-2011, 05:14 AM

My setting is this , Bass>amp>DI>PA>Cab(weird setting yeah

) . My amp has a compression , so I use it on the amp. Thus ,the sound is already compressed.

mcapote · #17 01-11-2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Brienzo

You got to watch it with a singer. Smashing a vocalist is the worst because it will make all the cymbal/drum bleed louder in his or her mic. Ya gota hate those cymbals right behind the singers head all night.

thats a problem im already trying to battle, seems like my drummers kick is bleeding into other mics LOLs, such a pita. dont even have any compression yet.

walker rosewood · #18 01-11-2011, 02:48 PM

If the kick is bleeding into other mics...then EQ out the low end on the other mics. Especially vocal mics. Most boards, even cheap ones, have a button for high pass filter (HPF), which rolls off the low end, or just use the low eq knob. The lowest of male voices only gets down to around 80hz, and most pop vocals are way higher then that. so anything below that just cut right out, and you'll eliminate the kick drum bleed.

If a lot of bleed is the problem then a gate/expander will help you more then a compressor. In very simple terms, a gate on the vocal mic will mute it when the singer is not singing.

The 'trigger' to open (unmute) the mic is a specific threshold of volume. Ideally, a vocalist singing directly into the mic is a louder source then just the bleeding kick drum/other stage noise. Thus, when they are not singing it closes.

That's the basic gist, but Gates/expanders have some more controls to make things more smoother or natural sounding. So you're not 'muting' the vocalist in mid phrase, or causing a stutter effect. Just like compression, it can easily be overdone and make things sound worse.

Some fancy gates have a 'key filter' which can be set to a specific frequency. Then, the gate will open only when that frequency is loud enough. A good example is a gate on a kick drum mic. A normal gate may be unintentionally triggered when the drummer hits the snare. But if you set the key filter to 40hz, the snare drum doesn't have a lot of volume in that range, so it won't trip the gate. The kick drum likes that range however, so it will open the gate. For vocals I like to use 2k as my key filter, which keeps the cymbals from triggering it.

walker rosewood · #19 01-11-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Brienzo

You got to watch it with a singer. Smashing a vocalist is the worst because it will make all the cymbal/drum bleed louder in his or her mic. Ya gota hate those cymbals right behind the singers head all night.

The worst thing ever is singing drummers. ...just the thought of sticking a vocal mic right in the middle of all that mess makes me cringe.

mcapote · #20 01-11-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walker rosewood

If the kick is bleeding into other mics...then EQ out the low end on the other mics. Especially vocal mics. Most boards, even cheap ones, have a button for high pass filter (HPF), which rolls off the low end, or just use the low eq knob. The lowest of male voices only gets down to around 80hz, and most pop vocals are way higher then that. so anything below that just cut right out, and you'll eliminate the kick drum bleed.

If a lot of bleed is the problem then a gate/expander will help you more then a compressor. In very simple terms, a gate on the vocal mic will mute it when the singer is not singing.

The 'trigger' to open (unmute) the mic is a specific threshold of volume. Ideally, a vocalist singing directly into the mic is a louder source then just the bleeding kick drum/other stage noise. Thus, when they are not singing it closes.

That's the basic gist, but Gates/expanders have some more controls to make things more smoother or natural sounding. So you're not 'muting' the vocalist in mid phrase, or causing a stutter effect. Just like compression, it can easily be overdone and make things sound worse.

Some fancy gates have a 'key filter' which can be set to a specific frequency. Then, the gate will open only when that frequency is loud enough. A good example is a gate on a kick drum mic. A normal gate may be unintentionally triggered when the drummer hits the snare. But if you set the key filter to 40hz, the snare drum doesn't have a lot of volume in that range, so it won't trip the gate. The kick drum likes that range however, so it will open the gate. For vocals I like to use 2k as my key filter, which keeps the cymbals from triggering it.

great info and suggestions thanks