Condenser mic for live vocals?

[Sabulum]

Hey all, I'm coming to you because the guys at Sam Ash couldn't answer my question. Sorry if this is the wrong forum.

I'm a female bassist and vocalist who REALLY needs a new vocal mic. My voice has been described as "breathy" or "sweet" in that I like to sing soft, but I can belt it out too, so I need a mic that captures all those dynamics. After demoing a couple at my local store, I decided I really like the sound of the EV RE410, and it's right at the upper end of my price range.

However...

Considering that I'll need to hear my bass as well as my vocals, would there be issues of feedback or noise bleed with a condenser? (I work with a trio of guitar/bass/drums, and we can get loud at times.) I know they're more fragile, but I'm not as worried about that as the quality of sound.

I've only ever worked with dynamic mics before... would I be better off sticking with a higher-end dynamic mic and sacrificing a bit in tone?

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by Sabulum

...
I've only ever worked with dynamic mics before... would I be better off sticking with a higher-end dynamic mic and sacrificing a bit in tone?

For what it's worth... SM58s have been used for vocals on major records.

The $100 tank.

Are you going to use your new mic through a "PA", or a high-end audiophile sound system?

[Stone Soup]

I used to use a Beta 87a (vocal condenser). It sounded great to me, but picked up a lot of stage sound. I never had feedback issues, but I had always used in-ears with it. These days, I'm using a Beta 58a (dynamic) and it's working out very well, for me. I'm still using in-ears, so no feedback there either. If you use wedges, just place your monitors properly for the pickup pattern of your mic and you shouldn't have any problems. I'm a tenor, BTW.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Sabulum

Hey all, I'm coming to you because the guys at Sam Ash couldn't answer my question. Sorry if this is the wrong forum.

I'm a female bassist and vocalist who REALLY needs a new vocal mic. My voice has been described as "breathy" or "sweet" in that I like to sing soft, but I can belt it out too, so I need a mic that captures all those dynamics. After demoing a couple at my local store, I decided I really like the sound of the EV RE410, and it's right at the upper end of my price range.

However...

Considering that I'll need to hear my bass as well as my vocals, would there be issues of feedback or noise bleed with a condenser? (I work with a trio of guitar/bass/drums, and we can get loud at times.) I know they're more fragile, but I'm not as worried about that as the quality of sound.

I've only ever worked with dynamic mics before... would I be better off sticking with a higher-end dynamic mic and sacrificing a bit in tone?

That's a great mic. Make sure the board has phantom power, though.

[lowfreq33]

Bleed can be an issue with any microphone. If you're going to use a condenser live it needs to have a very narrow polar pattern, which is actually easier to achieve with a dual-diaphragm condenser. But honestly the sensitivity of the microphone is kind of irrelevant. A hotter mic just gets the gain turned down at the board. The main reason most people prefer dynamic mics in a live setting is they tend to be a little more rugged. The diaphragms on condensers are usually very thin, so drop it a couple of times and it's done. Whereas a 58 can double as a hammer in a pinch and come out fine.

[Sabulum]

For what it's worth... SM58s have been used for vocals on major records.

The $100 tank.

Are you going to use your new mic through a "PA", or a high-end audiophile sound system?

I've heard a lot about the 58, but the tone is a bit too muddy for my tastes after trying it on a gig. Maybe I just didn't know how to tweak it properly, though.

We go through a small Behringer, with Peavey wedge monitors... nothing fancy at all. I wish we had the money for that. :P Most of my bass ends up coming through my cabinet unless there's an in-house PA.

[Violen]

NO.

[audioglenn]

From the way you described your vocal style, I would definately use a condenser microphone on your voice. The fact is that a condenser mic is much more sensitive and will pick up the response of a "breathy", ''sweet" vocalist. In short, you want a microphone that will pick up the subtleties of your vocal style.
I looked up the frequency response curve of the RE410 mic and it looks like it should be very complimentary to a female voice. If this is at the upper end of your budget, it should work well.
I used to work with a very talented female vocalist and the mic I used with her was an AKG C535, This is an excellent vocal mic! I've seen many different vocalists use this microphone. However, it may be too expensive.
I hope that this information helps.

[lowfreq33]

Originally Posted by Violen

NO.

How informative.

[lowfreq33]

Originally Posted by Sabulum

I've heard a lot about the 58, but the tone is a bit too muddy for my tastes after trying it on a gig. Maybe I just didn't know how to tweak it properly, though.

We go through a small Behringer, with Peavey wedge monitors... nothing fancy at all. I wish we had the money for that. :P Most of my bass ends up coming through my cabinet unless there's an in-house PA.

The fact that your amp is carrying most of the weight out front is likely to cause more bleed problems than your choice of mic. But hey, gotta work with what you have.

[Sabulum]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Bleed can be an issue with any microphone. If you're going to use a condenser live it needs to have a very narrow polar pattern, which is actually easier to achieve with a dual-diaphragm condenser. But honestly the sensitivity of the microphone is kind of irrelevant. A hotter mic just gets the gain turned down at the board. The main reason most people prefer dynamic mics in a live setting is they tend to be a little more rugged. The diaphragms on condensers are usually very thin, so drop it a couple of times and it's done. Whereas a 58 can double as a hammer in a pinch and come out fine.

God, if I drop any piece of equipment it just about gives me an aneurysm.... Thanks, that was very helpful.

Originally Posted by audioglenn

From the way you described your vocal style, I would definately use a condenser microphone on your voice. The fact is that a condenser mic is much more sensitive and will pick up the response of a "breathy", ''sweet" vocalist. In short, you want a microphone that will pick up the subtleties of your vocal style.
I looked up the frequency response curve of the RE410 mic and it looks like it should be very complimentary to a female voice. If this is at the upper end of your budget, it should work well.
I used to work with a very talented female vocalist and the mic I used with her was an AKG C535, This is an excellent vocal mic! I've seen many different vocalists use this microphone. However, it may be too expensive.
I hope that this information helps.

Thanks for all the input! That definitely backs up what I heard myself when I tried them out, so I'm glad to hear it. I'll make note of the AKG C535, but you're right, I'd prefer not to spend an extra $100 if I can help it.

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

The fact that your amp is carrying most of the weight out front is likely to cause more bleed problems than your choice of mic. But hey, gotta work with what you have.

Sadly true. Good to know I'm screwed either way, though, so to speak. *chuckle*

You guys never disappoint. Thanks for all your prompt responses, y'all are very helpful.

[JimmyM]

The SM87 and Beta 87 are often used by women singers of the female sex and my sometimes boss, Bowzer of Sha Na Na, who sings bass and likes a really crazy deafening amount of treble. I don't find them any more prone to bleed than most other Shures, and only slightly more delicate than a 58.

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The SM87 and Beta 87 are often used by women singers of the female sex

As opposed to women of the male sex

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I don't find them any more prone to bleed than most other Shures

I noticed a good amount more stage noise than my beta 58, in my in-ear mix. It actually sounded to me like I had the drum overheads in my ears.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Sabulum

I've heard a lot about the 58, but the tone is a bit too muddy for my tastes after trying it on a gig. Maybe I just didn't know how to tweak it properly, though.

We go through a small Behringer, with Peavey wedge monitors... nothing fancy at all. I wish we had the money for that. :P Most of my bass ends up coming through my cabinet unless there's an in-house PA.

I'd go with a Beta 58A. It's a little brighter than the SM58, and it's super-cardiod so it has better off-axis rejection. You have to be careful with monitor placement, as you would with most condenser mics. I've had less feedback issues with dynamic mics than with condensers. It's $159 MAP, but Northern Sound and Light has them much cheaper. You have to call them on the phone to get their price.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The SM87 and Beta 87 are often used by women singers of the female sex and my sometimes boss, Bowzer of Sha Na Na, who sings bass and likes a really crazy deafening amount of treble. I don't find them any more prone to bleed than most other Shures, and only slightly more delicate than a 58.

Bowzer would probably be one of the few singers who would sound good through a Heil PR-22.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Bowzer would probably be one of the few singers who would sound good through a Heil PR-22.

He'll never buy one. He just uses what's there but specifies an 87 wireless in his rider. Doesn't always get it but usually does. I'll tell you though, the Beta 58 is a good suggestion as well. Definitely brighter than the regular 58.

Stone Soup...we've generally had good luck with the 87 although the bands I play in don't go for too loud onstage volume. If onstage volume gets up there, might be a good idea to stick with dynamic.

[craig.p]

OP, I understand what you're looking for for your vocal style. A condenser isn't absolutely required, but a good one will add that extra bit of transparency at the high end. I am a lead singer, and I alternate between a Shure SM86 and a Sennheiser e835, depending on the material. I use an ART Phantom I to power the Shure, rather than rely on power from the board. I explain why in my review of the Phantom I at BH Photo Video; basically it's because there are too many junk snakes and junk dynamic mics around that don't play well with global phantom power.

Both mics have an extended, airy, super clean top end. The Sennheiser has far less proximity effect, though, so if you use varying distance as part of your mic technique, that's the mic that won't add bulk to your voice as you approach it. This may or may not be desirable. The Shure does provide that effect, the same way the SMs and the Betas do. It's not a question of whether the effect is good or bad, simply whether it's an effect you consider an asset or a liability for your particular style.

Some say that bargain condensers tend to spit at high SPLs. I have not experienced this with my SM86, and I have a very loud voice. But, I do use it responsibly, i.e. I never scream into it while my mouth is touching the windscreen.

Hope this helps.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

That's a great mic. Make sure the board has phantom power, though.

I carry this little device, just in case...

Denecke PS-1a, 48v phantom power. It runs on a 9v battery.

[Tuned]

When conditions are favorable, condenser vocal mics work great, but often the reason conditions are unfavorable it's because the PA has to compete with a big noisy crowd, the last situation you want to be fighting feedback in, and you don't want to switch vocal mics having already butchered the EQ's.

Like they say, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. There are plenty of great dynamic vocal mics out there, and any self-respecting shop will let you rent them before you buy. Try them on stage, forget how they sound in the shop. Get a sound tech's advice about how they work with your voice. The right mic for you is an excellent investment, worth spending time and money to determine.

There aren't many reputable vocal mics that sound worse than an SM58, but there's no arguing with their performance record. I suspect their feedback rejection is due in part to the fact that they are a little dirty. Sometimes it's better the be dirty and loud than to go unheard altogether. On days like that you will wish you'd never even tried a condenser mic.

I've mixed many female vocals and one outstanding female singer hundreds of times, I can attest that you can skip Sennheiser mics, AKG's sound great but they're a little hairy for feedback, EV's are great too, never got to use Audix mics on female voice much, but I think they're worth a shot. My go-to mic for 'miss awesome singer' is an AKG D770 (current model is D77). She's got epic pipes so feedback isn't a problem and I know which frequencies will go first. If you want to be sure you can use your sotto voce I'd start with an EV N/D767 or N/D967 if the weird shaped head doesn't bug you.

[TimmyP]

The SM86 is my favorite Shure capsule, and the tightest condenser I've use I think. 935 is good, as are the OM7/OM6/OM3, PL80a (all dynamics). Never used the PR35 but many say it works well on a noisy stage.