Critique my stage setup

trowaclown · #1 11-09-2010, 02:58 AM

Hey there everyone,

I'm wearing multiple hats in my hall band and one of them includes planning the stage setup for the band, a five piece with:

Lead singer
Guitarist 1
Guitarist 2, backing vocals
Drummer, backing vocals
Me, backing vocals

Unfortunately, the equipment's terrible compared to some of yours. I'm running sound as well, with these equipment:

All 4 vocals going into a mixer, output through one speaker
All guitars and bass through amplifier
Drums unmic-ed

My main aim is to have a decent first gig for this band, which has had a line up change. With the equipment available, I want to have a good mix going into the audience, while allowing all members to hear each other and monitor theirs and each other's singing/playing. Since there're no extra monitors it's only through the amps and the sole speaker available.

I've planned the following stage setup, and hope to cluster all band members as closely together as possible, and be as near the front of the stage to the audience as possible. As it's a stage (around 3 feet of elevation), the amps will be raised SLIGHTLY to help the band members hear better, while keeping the level within the audience's ear levels.

Could you all please critique this setup? Are there better ideas, such as shooting sound from a corner?

Much appreciated, folks!

mazdah · #2 11-09-2010, 03:13 AM

DO! NOT! RAISE! your amps under any circumstances!
Especially guitar amps will make the ears bleed. On EVERY gig with raised guitar amps I've been, I had to tell the guitar players to put their amps on the stage floor, because audience was ALWAYS in pain - everything was so trebly and ear piercing.

Raising amps may be good idea when you have full PA support and very low stage volume - that the audience won't hear your amps, just the PA.

I prefer less curve than the one on your picture and I like playing from a backline, with PA support to make the sound more consistent. I like your setup, just don't raise your amps and keep the volume low, since the PA Spekaer is on your back - with PA too loud, you won't be able to hear your amps, with both cranked you'll be deaf soon

Oldboy · #3 11-09-2010, 03:28 AM

With the lone PA speaker situated behind you:
A.You're going to have trouble projecting your vocals PAST the guitar amps.
B.You're most likely to experience feedback problems,as you most likely need to raise your PA volume because of where the speaker is situated.
As Mazdah says,don't elevate the guitar amps,as it can lead to a false sense of security.Our 2nd guitarist has his Marshall combo on an amp stand,so that its practically at ear level.Problem is,he thinks its loud enough-nobody else can hear it!
See if you cant beg,borrow or steal another PA speaker.

mazdah · #4 11-09-2010, 03:42 AM

Yup, two PA speakers in front of the stage is the "classic club setup".

deigam · #5 11-09-2010, 03:55 AM

i think 1 single pa speaker wont be enough ... in particular if you place it behind the guitar/bass amps, maybe the band will hear the vocals, but definitely not the audience.

anyway, even with 2 pa speakers it's almost impossible that everyone in the band can clearly hear the vocals. Even in very small clubs, you'll be needing monitors. That's my experience, at least.

Lastly ... I usually place the 2 guitarists on 2 opposite sides of the stage, expecially if you are not miking amps ... guitar sounds will be a bit confused otherwise and it will be weird hearing all the guitars on one side and the bass on the other.

trowaclown · #6 11-09-2010, 04:08 AM

Thanks for the feedback so far folks. Much appreciated, really. I was hoping that people like y'all will chime in because I have no idea what I don't know.

1. Roger on not raising the amps. Will not do so for the guitar amps.

2. I've got 2 monitors actually, but they're mismatched. Both are 15" 2 ways, but they're different brands, with one a Yamaha and the other a Delta Audio (local cheapie brand). I'm not confident about running both in the typical set up, as their frequency responses are pretty different from what my ears can hear. Besides, the vocals are not panned anyway, so everything's in mono. If I'm using both, is there some better way to do it? I'm worried about aimming one at the audience and the other back towards us, because there might be echoes from the latter hitting the back of the stage before going into the audience. Phasing issues and all?

3. The guitarists rely on a lot of cues from each other to coordinate their parts, so I'd prefer they stick together. Can I keep the guitar and bass amps even closer to the 'center' to remove the sense of spacial left/right-ness?

R. Laevinus · #7 11-09-2010, 06:36 AM

Putting the PA cab behind the mikes is asking for hellish feedback issues all night long. Since you have two that you don't want to use together, stick them at the front of the stage, in front of the lead guy, back-to-back - face the Yammie towards the crowd, and use the Delta as a vocal monitor. If you're concerned about level-matching them, run one off an auxiliary feed from the board, or put one on each channel of a stereo power amp, and adjust levels accordingly via the main mix faders on your console. I wouldn't worry about phasing. By the time rear wall reflections have reached the audience, they'll have lost so much energy as to not be able to compete with the juice being pumped out from the main speaker.

You COULD move the amps closer together, but I wouldn't. You should have a fine stereo field by leaving the amps where they are.

nitrofix · #8 11-09-2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deigam

i think 1 single pa speaker wont be enough ... in particular if you place it behind the guitar/bass amps, maybe the band will hear the vocals, but definitely not the audience.

anyway, even with 2 pa speakers it's almost impossible that everyone in the band can clearly hear the vocals. Even in very small clubs, you'll be needing monitors. That's my experience, at least.

Lastly ... I usually place the 2 guitarists on 2 opposite sides of the stage, expecially if you are not miking amps ... guitar sounds will be a bit confused otherwise and it will be weird hearing all the guitars on one side and the bass on the other.

+1

nitrofix · #9 11-09-2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trowaclown

3. The guitarists rely on a lot of cues from each other to coordinate their parts, so I'd prefer they stick together. Can I keep the guitar and bass amps even closer to the 'center' to remove the sense of spacial left/right-ness?

Just because their amps are on different sides of the stage doesn't mean they can't get together for clues...

trowaclown · #10 11-09-2010, 10:14 AM

Further discussions noted with thanks.

@R. Laevinus: Sounds good with the speakers. I'll try that on the day itself, and play a CD through the mixer to see how it sounds first.

@deigam and nitrofix: Separating them never really occurred to me actually. We're used to jamming in a circle with the amps firing into the 'center' of the circle so that we can all hear each other, and the two guitarists always stand together, so I thought it'd be logical to stick them close as usual. I've just asked them both, and one preferred being with the other, while the other prefered being apart.

Are there any advantages/disadvantages to placing the guitarists/amps together or apart, besides the disadvantage mentioned above about guitars coming from the right and bass from the left?

StuartV · #11 11-09-2010, 11:29 AM

It's mostly been said, so I'm just re-iterating.

1) Put your guitar players on opposite sides of the stage from each other. Each one needs to hear his own guitar amp much better than he hears the other guy's amp.

2) Put your FOH (Front Of House) PA speaker in front of the band. You will NOT be able to run it loud enough for the audience to hear the vocals if it's behind the vocalist' mic. You'll just get ear-bleeding feedback.

3) Use your other speaker as a monitor, on the floor angled up, for the vocals, mainly for the lead singer to hear, but shared with the other other vocalists. If you have 2 speakers and a stereo power amp, you can use one channel for FOH (mono) and the other channel for the monitor (mono) and at least have them at different levels, so the FOH level can be loud, while the monitor level quieter.

ivanj007 · #12 11-09-2010, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trowaclown

Hey there everyone,

I'm wearing multiple hats in my hall band and one of them includes planning the stage setup for the band, a five piece with:

Lead singer
Guitarist 1
Guitarist 2, backing vocals
Drummer, backing vocals
Me, backing vocals

Unfortunately, the equipment's terrible compared to some of yours. I'm running sound as well, with these equipment:

All 4 vocals going into a mixer, output through one speaker
All guitars and bass through amplifier
Drums unmic-ed

My main aim is to have a decent first gig for this band, which has had a line up change. With the equipment available, I want to have a good mix going into the audience, while allowing all members to hear each other and monitor theirs and each other's singing/playing. Since there're no extra monitors it's only through the amps and the sole speaker available.

I've planned the following stage setup, and hope to cluster all band members as closely together as possible, and be as near the front of the stage to the audience as possible. As it's a stage (around 3 feet of elevation), the amps will be raised SLIGHTLY to help the band members hear better, while keeping the level within the audience's ear levels.

Could you all please critique this setup? Are there better ideas, such as shooting sound from a corner?

Much appreciated, folks!

Hey Man,

To get a decent sound from your whole band you'll need to at least rent another PA speaker, at least 2 monitors, and drum mics.

Does your bassist/guitarists amps have Direct Output? If so connect them to the Mixer as well. If not then mic them up.

Use 1 monitor for your drummer and one for your singer.

Also, how big is the venue?

ps. renting all the equipment mentioned and more will be probably around $50. Split it 5 ways and that's 10 bucks per person. You'll be fine!

countrybassist · #13 11-09-2010, 03:11 PM

Use 2 PA speakers up front, one on each side of the stage. Have at least one monitor for the singer. Mic the vocals and kick drum. Also if possible, DI your bass through the PA as well. I don't think it matters where the 2 guitarist put their amps.

OtterOnBass · #14 11-09-2010, 09:02 PM

You don't use two PA speakers for volume, but for sound dispersion. You can use one, but unless the room is long and narrow, the people on the edges will have a 'less-crisp' experience.

walterw · #15 11-09-2010, 09:55 PM

lets not get carried away with the bass DIs and the drum mics just yet.

both speakers (even if they're mis-matched) go out in front of the vocal mics, one on each side of your stage area. the idea is not to be louder, but to let everybody in the audience hear the vocals.

you could try turning one back to serve as a monitor, but without (i'm guessing) any EQ for it or any way to control it separate from the other speaker, it'll likely just feed back on you. sometimes you can turn them both in just a little to hear some of it on stage, but it will feed back more if you're not careful.

try and wrangle a monitor wedge or two, but if not, just tough it out.

guitar amps should indeed stay on the floor to keep from blowing everything else away, but the trick there is to lean them back so they point up a little more towards the guitar player's head. they'll hear themselves without destroying everybody else.

only vocals go in the PA; don't boost the low end or it'll lose clarity and volume.

somebody who isn't singing needs to go out with a long cable and hear what it sounds like, then adjust the PA and tell people to turn up or (more likely) turn down.

Downunderwonder · #16 11-09-2010, 09:57 PM

Absolutely don't put PA behind band. Even if you don't have monitors.

Always good to mic guitar amps and use them as monitors. Then the guitarists can point their amps at themselves at close range, raised or not, get all the feedback and tone they want, and adjust other monitor content to suit the rest of you.

How come? Because the less guitar volume there is on stage the better everyone can hear everything and the cleaner the sound from FOH. Also the driummer will be less inclined to play really loud just to hear himself so the PA doesn't have to work as hard to keep up with him. Win win win. You might actually wind up with some intelligible vocals in the room.

XM8500 mics are something like 20 or 30 bucks apiece depending on how many you buy at once.

trowaclown · #17 11-10-2010, 02:04 AM

Lotsa information coming through, thank you for them.

@StuartV: Good point about the guitarists needing to hear themselves. That wasn't something I considered. I'll position them apart then, and hope that their cables are long enough to let them walk around as and when necessary.

@everyone else: Thanks for all the suggestions as well. It's a gig for a hall event which means:

1. We're not paid, so there's absolutely no reason to ask the kids for money to rent/buy anything. I'm determined to work with what I've got here and make the best of it, instead of aimming any higher. There're other events in the future for that.

2. I'm looking at 100 people in the audience, tops. The venue is the hall's function hall (what a mouthful) which I estimate to be 30m x 30m, or for the Americans out there, around 100 feet on each side. But given the crowd size, the furthest member of the audience is probably going to be 15m/50ft from the front of stage. I'm going sound like an ass for saying this, but if they wanna hear better they gotta come closer, instead of listening from a distance. I'll do my best to cluster them in front on the day itself.

3. I understand the rationale behind mic-ing up everything for a gig, and keeping stage volume low. Problem is, once I graduate and leave the hall these sorta 'fancy' setups will probably not be used, so I can't imagine spending money on instrument mics and stuff just to have them idle one/two years down the road.

I'll go with the one speaker into the audience, one for monitoring route for now. Seems like the best compromise for what I got/need. Thanks once again. I'll report back after the gig!

CullerBass · #18 11-13-2010, 02:38 PM

Waw, lot's of good ideas here, and some other ones too. My two cents: R. Laevinus idea is good. Use the better sounding speaker as a PA main, don't worry about micing or DI's for instruments with this small of a rig. Get the instruments balanced without using the PA (it's possible and when it's done right, it sounds great) Use the lesser quality speaker as a downstage monitor. Run the monitor on an aux send from your board. Find a used two channel graphic EQ (under $150), use one channel to run your master output through, and the other for the monitor (plug this in between the board and the amp.) Using the graph will help with feedback/headroom issues with the speaker. And do try to keep guitars on opposite sides of stage for clarity and seraration. If you have any questions about using the graphic EQ's you can look it up or PM me.
Hope this is helpful... Sorry if it's not. (FWIW, I'm a full time audio engineer for a large church and also do lot's of club gigs)

trowaclown · #19 11-14-2010, 03:37 AM

Thread's not dead!

Thanks much CullerBass. I've got enough cables personally to stand around 10m/30ft from the stage, so I'll balance the instruments. The speakers are powered, so I can run them in a master/slave configuration. The mixer has a graphic eq, so I'll use it to tweak the Yamaha, and have the Delta Audio speaker run as a slave speaker.

Are there any fast and dirty rules I should engage for running the graphic eq? I'm hoping to keep it flat unless I need to cut something to compensate for the hall's inherent acoustics.

Rockmusician · #20 11-15-2010, 07:54 PM

I would put the drummer in the rear center behind the singer and move one guitar player to the far left so teh bass is between him and the drummer. It will be easier for both guitarists to hear you and make it easier for you and the drummer to lock in with each other.

Drummer in rear center. Then left to right: Guitar, Bass, Singer, Guitar. This will also balance out your stage volume for your audience.