DBX 31 band and an SVT classic

[suraci]

I need to carve out certain frequencies ( I will mention the results of this experiment, if this thread survives lift off !) from my chosen rig that sounded great in the store about a year ago.
I tried a genz with the ampeg bottom, and it sounded clearer, but I stubbornly wish to continue the search for taming this beastly combination. A 2 Mark bass tops,and a carvin, just lacked what svt has in spades, so they are gone too.

My ampeg 4 x 10 w extended low end and classic head are a bit much ( struggling to get clarity and punch at just the right gain ) for the room and the requirements of the head of my new age center that I play for. I could abort the whole Ampeg thing and play with a modern amp ( I use an old jazz bass ) this would get rid of the offending mud or spread that I am getting. But then I would lose the Ampeg " goodness". It is a weekly struggle to tame this combination.
Do any sympathetic players, wish to add any suggestions ( besides comments about practice and switching gear- for now I am sticking with what I have ) regarding eq points- muddiness boominess, punch etc. When I chop the lows off, the sound is very clean, but using the low knob, is just not surgical enough= i believe it is centered very low, 40 hz.

Peace

[walker rosewood]

you can find the manual for the SVT on ampeg's site. It says exactly where each eq knob is centered, and how much boost and cut they give. Keep in mind that not all knobs are 'flat' at noon (not sure about the svt specifically). Also see if you can find frequency curves for your cabinet, your bass, and any pedals your are using. That should give you a good start on what frequencies are actually being cut/boosted.

Actually, if you have an iPhone or a friend with one... there's an app out there that will show you a real time frequency curve of whatever sound it's mic hears. It's pretty cool, it will track anything from just talking in it, to the sound coming from your TV, or a live concert. Set that in front of your rig and you'll get good info.

The other thing to do is set everything as flat as you can, then just go through every fader on the DBX one by one, boost it all the way, then cut it all the way. Listen, and see how each frequency actually effects the tone/sound, until you understand exactly what it is you want, and how to get it.

If it's too boomy, cut ~100hz or 125hz. Try boosting ~1.5hz for more clarity. ~5-6khz for more 'presence'. If nothing seems to be working, google is a powerful tool.

[MNAirHead]

TrueRTA works on a laptop (and downloadable) -- issue is that you will receive different ratings from different room positions.

-----

I trust you've already tested various room positions for placing your amp.. and testing moving it off the floor.

I'm not familiar with your cabinet.. have you tested plugging the ports (if it has them)

-----

Have you tested stainless roundwound tapercores?

-----

I've battled what you're experiencing.. sometimes it's just the room and lack of acoustical treatments... ..

------
I've tested a 31 band to solve this ----- wasn't as successful as I'd hoped... ended up being the PA, speaker placement, room treatments and room tuning.

[suraci]

I've battled what you're experiencing.. sometimes it's just the room and lack of acoustical treatments... ..

------
I've tested a 31 band to solve this ----- wasn't as successful as I'd hoped... ended up being the PA, speaker placement, room treatments and room tuning.

This is what I am afraid of. I will report back.

"NO, I have not", to most of your questions.. thank you.

[suraci]

There are now THREE ways to control the volume, two on the Classic, and one on the DBX EQ. The sound I got today was more controlled, and I actually put all the faders at 0. Later on I attenuated 125 hz which helped. After gig, I started "playing with it", and with minimal experimentation, I realized these is likely a mismatch in " gain structure " ( I have a very poor conception of this - impedance pre amp gain, pwr amo gain, etc). When I changed settings on EQ I did not notice as big a change as I would have gotten if I played, eg., with the Bass knob on the SVT. This suggests a mismatch somewhere in the chain.
In spite of this, I think there is hope with the EQ idea, even if ultimately not the DBX. Just the addition of the DBX in the effects loop, seemed to tame the SVT combo though.
But it also emasculated it, as well ( if yu know what I mean )
Any and all input ( that is supportive- I do know how to play, and realize this is doing it the harder way, vs getting a modern amp or cabx ) is appreciated.
With 3 gains or volumes, I am a bit overwhelmed with how to get the most tone out of this combination. I feel there IS a way. This whole thing is about the fact that the SVT in that room, at that low a volume, needs certain frequencies carved out. My sound man suggested dropping 125 Hz, and sure enough, the sound was cleaner when I dropped 125 about 9 db.
The 40 hz bass knob is not semi-parametric, I am stuck with 40 HZ, I cannot dial 50 hz or 60 or 80 etc. The mid knob is too high, it does not notch where I believe I need to notch.
Thank you

[walker rosewood]

There are now THREE ways to control the volume, two on the Classic, and one on the DBX EQ.

Not to mention the volume on your bass. There is a difference between gain and volume though. Gain is active boosting (which requires power), volume is usually just passive cutting.

When I changed settings on EQ I did not notice as big a change as I would have gotten if I played, eg., with the Bass knob on the SVT.

The bass knob on the svt is +/-12db at 40hz. I don't know what dbx you're using, but it might be +/-6db.

The mid knob is too high, it does not notch where I believe I need to notch.

Use the rotary switch to choose 220, 450, 800, 1.6, or 3k. (+10/-20).

With all eq's (including graphic), you're not just affecting that one frequency, you're affecting the frequencies around it in a bell curve.

[Zooberwerx]

A used 3-5 band para EQ would work wonders in this situation. Do a boost & sweep to find the offending freq's, attenuate as needed, then manipulate the bandwidth so as to minimize the effect on the more useful adjacent content.

Riis

[suraci]

I have played various bass amps with all kinds of eq's. I recall the Eden being very sensitive... not much of a turn on the knob ( cut boost ) and you could easily hear the change.
Some amps are more like this ( Eden as a for instance ) , than others. Then there is my current situation where moving faders does not make as comparable a difference as the dedicated bass amp knobs ( not all, some bass amps are really sensitive, others less so )
I think that until the ( whatever it is called- "sensitivity"- "impedance" "gain structure"?- I hate being this uneducated- But I know something about bass and music - nobody's perfect !) I get the whatever it is matched up, i will keep searching. I want to move a fader and hear a change. Of course I hear a change in my dbx, but even major attenuation or boost does not make as much opf a difference as some amps. I think this has partially to do with an electronic mismatch . One more example- when I played string bass directly into a powered speaker, the tone controls on the bass barely reflected the tonal changes I know the Fender Jazz are capable of. I am sure the DBX is at least + - 12 db.
I guess I am leading up to ask- are all parametrics the same in the application I am using the dbx for?? I recall owning an Allen and Heath mixing board ( Wizard??) I was told it was a little higher end than Mackie etc. I recall those eq points NOT seeming to make a whole lot of difference- this frustrated me and I sold it. same idea applied to eq. Thank you for indulging me.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

A used 3-5 band para EQ would work wonders in this situation. Do a boost & sweep to find the offending freq's, attenuate as needed, then manipulate the bandwidth so as to minimize the effect on the more useful adjacent content.

Riis

Agreed.

The bass control may be spec'd at 40Hz, but it also boosts/cuts much higher than that, so when you boost you usually get a lot of midbass badness along with bass goodness.

[suraci]

So that is why, since I already OWN the dbx, I figure there was a third oct eq, to make much better cuts in that muddy area. I don't wish to be forced to begin my sculpture at 40 hz if 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 etc are better target frequencies.
I wouldn't mind a parametric, but how do I know a good one or bad one from an even better one suited to this task? Remember I do not want to LOSE the SVT thing, just because I plugged into an eq. Ideally I am not supposed to lose my svt thing, but experience tells me every time I plug into darn near anything, I am messing with the pure signal. I am not meaning to sound extreme, just saying that some devices affect the sound ( even when flat ) much more than others. I recall hooking up an analogue volume pedal and being surprised that it covered up my sound.
Which parametric is killer for this purpose?

[walterw]

Originally Posted by suraci

My ampeg 4 x 10 w extended low end and classic head are a bit much ( struggling to get clarity and punch at just the right gain ) for the room and the requirements of the head of my new age center that I play for.

sounds like you need to lose that boomy "extended low" cab and get a tighter, smaller 4x10 (maybe even a sealed cab, like the amp was designed for).

[TimmyP]

The problem is not in the "low end". It could be in the 60Hz area, but is more likely between 80 and 160.

[suraci]

TimmyP and WalterW thank you both.
Your comments bring up an interesting idea. Yes, I quite agree, a tighter cabinet,,, BUT
I HAVE ( own it ) this one... 410HLF
Money is tight..
I am a naturally curious ( some even suggest, creative !) about 1/3 octave eq shaping..
I have heard this same cabinet 410HLF sound much less muddy, much more clear with a smaller GenzBz head, in the same very large room.

To get a little philosophical on you. I find that seldom is one "thing', the clearly superior "thing", to another thing.
Yes, a tighter cab, is well, tighter, but I am sure I sacrifice something in the trade. Yes, the Genz is clearer and less muddy, but it does not have what the all tube ampeg has. An easy solution is to dump the SVT for the Genz ( I can always do this, and at a profit ) but I want to hang in, and play with the eq and possibly compression before I either nix the svt or the cab or both.
I spent my earlier life on old Fenders, later I switched to a hybrid bass. The hybrid had things the Fender never had, a more "modern" sound, I suppose, BUT that Fender sound was missed over time. There is perhaps an indistinctness ( opposite of clarity- ) in some vint Fenders that it turns out, I like. Certain old Fenders have something unique that I am attached to.
There has to be a BALANCE of opposing ( polarity ) "forces in music". eg Clarity vs indistinctness. Puncn vs smoother- depth but not too much.
A bass in a mix, is only one element in the total sonic picture. Sometimes I think we get too caught up in our own sound and must not forget the larger picture. So, clarity or punch are not necessarily the holy grail, where more and more is better and better. Ok I feel better !

[suraci]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

A used 3-5 band para EQ would work wonders in this situation. Do a boost & sweep to find the offending freq's, attenuate as needed, then manipulate the bandwidth so as to minimize the effect on the more useful adjacent content.

Riis

What you are suggesting sounds like a great idea. 2 things.. HOW do I do this with a third octave unit... is a 31 band feasible?
And ... My sense, is that all EQ's - parametric's are not the same in terms of the application to an all tube bass head in the effects loop. I don't understand electronics, but there are issues of matching specs between the two units ( svt and eq ).
Can you offer any advice on which eq would be the most neutral yet have the power to really "musically" shape the tone, without introducing sonic problems of its own?
Do I have to spend a lot of money?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by suraci

What you are suggesting sounds like a great idea. 2 things.. HOW do I do this with a third octave unit... is a 31 band feasible?
And ... My sense, is that all EQ's - parametric's are not the same in terms of the application to an all tube bass head in the effects loop. I don't understand electronics, but there are issues of matching specs between the two units ( svt and eq ).
Can you offer any advice on which eq would be the most neutral yet have the power to really "musically" shape the tone, without introducing sonic problems of its own?
Do I have to spend a lot of money?

I think a 31 band is a bit much and doesn't lend itself well to the task of identifying & repairing the sonic anomalies described...IMO, of course. I cannot speak with any authority when used in conjunction with an all-tube bass amp; perhaps somebody else can jump in. The rack mount para EQ's I've used are line level and worked well with my SS gear. Even a single para EQ band (as found on several of my pre's) can be extremely useful when taming mud and/or boom in the lows and low-mids. I just sold my Rane PE15 as it was a redundancy. Every manufacturer and his sister offers some type of para EQ...some stellar, some not so good. A search is in order as my mind is drawing a blank. Again, I'm sure some fellow TBer's will chime in with some suggestions. Hint: you can probably find something really nice for well under $100 used.

Riis

[walker rosewood]

What you are suggesting sounds like a great idea. 2 things.. HOW do I do this with a third octave unit... is a 31 band feasible?

this.

Originally Posted by walker rosewood

The other thing to do is set everything as flat as you can, then just go through every fader on the DBX one by one, boost it all the way, then cut it all the way. Listen, and see how each frequency actually effects the tone/sound, until you understand exactly what it is you want, and how to get it.

[suraci]

Thank you "guys", I appreciate it.
Will report back my findings.

I see no one took the "bait" when I ( diverged a bit ) waxed philosophical about eq solving cab and SVT anomalies. What exactly is an anomaly anyway, sounds like something very sweet that my grand parents would eat with their expresso. lol

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by suraci

Thank you "guys", I appreciate it.
Will report back my findings.

I see no one took the "bait" when I ( diverged a bit ) waxed philosophical about eq solving cab and SVT anomalies. What exactly is an anomaly anyway, sounds like something very sweet that my grand parents would eat with their expresso. lol

Not sure but we use it a lot in medical practice to describe something out-of-the-ordinary or outside normal limits because we're not allowed to say "what the hell is that?!?"

Riis

[hbarcat]

Just for laughs, try this experiment:

Cut several dB at 40 HZ and boost around 125 HZ.
At the same time, cut around 500 HZ and boost around 3,000 HZ.





If mud or lack of clarity is the problem, I find this approach often helps.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

Just for laughs, try this experiment:

Cut several dB at 40 HZ and boost around 125 HZ.
At the same time, cut around 500 HZ and boost around 3,000 HZ.
If mud or lack of clarity is the problem, I find this approach often helps.

I will try it. Thank you for that.
My sound man ( I am not in the PA ) , a bass player who actually is known to hang out here at TB, asked me to CUT 125 HZ, I swear to God. When I tried it, it seemed to give more clarity.
I have 2 other problems, one minor, one more serious.
1. The problem with the DBX eq, is old fashioned sliders, so you can't make a copy of several different settings. A real drag. Does anyone have a handy way to record the settings on a hardware EQ?

2. The biggest problem I am having is the fact that my tone is still not neutral... not like it would be if EQ was neutral or transparent or bypassed ( yes there is a bypass on the dbx )
There are three settings that influence volume or gain. Plus the bass knobs themselves.

Can someone help me set the knobs in the optimal position.. please!! The position where my tone knobs on bass will behave closest to when I use bass au naturel, sans eq.
Thanks again.