dbx DriveRack PA+: Addt'l PEQ or GEQ Required?

[Zooberwerx]

Preface: I purchased, installed, and did a trial-run with my DRPA in my living room (my wife just loves the auto level / EQ / FS). Well, I got it working but still didn't embrace its full capabilities so I posted an "assistance needed" in the local CL. Mark Phillips, Ultimate Sound / Hampton, VA, invited me over for a tutorial so I loaded up the entire PA rig (sans speakers) and headed over. I'm sure we didn't cover everything but we did spend close to 4 hours. Charged me $20.

Mark was less than overwhelmed with the automatic feedback suppression and suggested that I maintain a dual-channel graphic EQ in line so I can make adjustments on the fly. I don't have a graphic EQ but I do have a single channel Rane Para EQ (I was running my mixer in mono so its in the L main insert) so I need to consider an upgrade. Here are the choices:

*Dump the Rane Para EQ, install a dual band graphic EQ, and run my mixer in stereo.

*Buy a second Para EQ and run my mixer in stereo.

*Remove both PEQ and GEQ, not required (unlikely).

Thanks for the input (no pun intended).

Riis

[projectMalamute]

If you just want the EQ for feedback I'd get a graphic. If a mic starts to take off it's a lot faster to just reach over and pull down the right band than it is to start sweeping a parametric around looking for it.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

If you just want the EQ for feedback I'd get a graphic. If a mic starts to take off it's a lot faster to just reach over and pull down the right band than it is to start sweeping a parametric around looking for it.

Roger that. I need something with which I can react quickly and is halfway familar to the other band members. Example:

Me: Ricky, go pull down the 4 khz slider to -3.


Ricky: Durrr.....okay, George!

FTR, Mark pointed out that, in his experience, trouble-spots most commonly occur in the 400 hz and 4 khz regions.

Thanks

Riis

[AlembicPlayer]

Dump the Rane Para EQ, install a dual band graphic EQ, and run my mixer in stereo.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by AlembicPlayer

Dump the Rane Para EQ, install a dual band graphic EQ, and run my mixer in stereo.

Any suggestions for modestly-priced dual band graphic EQ? I have enough room for a 2 space unit, no problem there.

Thanks

Riis

[AlembicPlayer]

DBX 231 Dual Channel 31-Band is a good deal with balanced in/outs(199.00 new)
I'd go with a 31 band, not 15...
I've seen them second hand for around 100 bucks

I like the Rane gear, but it may be out of your budget

on the super cheap...
Behringer FBQ3102 Behringer FBQ3102 Dual 31 Band Equalizer(just over a 100 bucks new)

here's a link with a bunch of units -

http://www.sweetwater.com/c788--Graphic_EQ

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Here are the choices:

*Dump the Rane Para EQ, install a dual band graphic EQ, and run my mixer in stereo.

*Buy a second Para EQ and run my mixer in stereo.

*Remove both PEQ and GEQ, not required (unlikely).

Thanks for the input (no pun intended).

Riis

run your mixer in stereo, or run your whole PA in stereo? because unless you're doing the latter, there's no reason to do the former.

i vote for mono, as stereo is useless in little clubs; you need way more gear and processing, and whatever you pan left, it just means that folks on the right don't hear it. plus, fighting feedback in stereo means trying to grab two faders at once!

the parametric is far better for knocking out feedback without altering overall tone, but it's trickier to use. you could have a couple EQ bands ready to go, with a narrow but super-deep notch, bypassed. when the time comes, kick in the band, turn the frequency knob until the feedback stops, done.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by walterw

run your mixer in stereo, or run your whole PA in stereo? because unless you're doing the latter, there's no reason to do the former.

i vote for mono, as stereo is useless in little clubs; you need way more gear and processing, and whatever you pan left, it just means that folks on the right don't hear it. plus, fighting feedback in stereo means trying to grab two faders at once!

the parametric is far better for knocking out feedback without altering overall tone, but it's trickier to use. you could have a couple EQ bands ready to go, with a narrow but super-deep notch, bypassed. when the time comes, kick in the band, turn the frequency knob until the feedback stops, done.

I configured my first two "experimental" banks in mono and stereo, respectively. The stereo is interesting....but that's with canned tracks in the confines of my living room! Given my hardware constraints (one para EQ), I'll have to agree with running the mixer / PA in mono. I'll place it between the mixer and DRPA+.

+1 on presetting the para EQ's 5 bands with suspected trouble-spots. Its been suggested that 400 hz and 4 khz are good starting points. Which other freq. points are chronically bothersome?....which leads me to another question re: auto-feedback suppression.

Procedure suggests setting the main fader at -0- and then slowly goosing a mic channel fader until FB is encountered and squelched. Would it make more sense to sub-group all vocal mikes and boost the sub-group fader or would this cause unwanted cancellations / conflicts?

Riis

[derrico1]

+1 for mono. Especially if you're not already a live sound ninja, stereo is likely to create problems in your FOH sound.

That said, at least a dual graphic eq would be useful -- one side for (mono) FOH and one for a monitor mix. Add a graphic for each additional monitor mix.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by derrico1

+1 for mono. Especially if you're not already a live sound ninja, stereo is likely to create problems in your FOH sound.

That said, at least a dual graphic eq would be useful -- one side for (mono) FOH and one for a monitor mix. Add a graphic for each additional monitor mix.

Or save some bucks and just buy a single channel graphic EQ for the monitor and keep the PEQ on FOH. I can always switch them around if necessary.

I'm almost embarrassed to talk about our monitor system. Its pretty much comprised of cast-offs (old JBL mains, ancient integrated Peavey PA head) collected over the past years. We've got it sounding fairly decent and using Aux Send #1 to feed signal. I believe Doug / dcr suggested tapping into an unused mic channel for better control (volume, eq'ing, adding FX, etc.).

BTW, what are the pro's / con's of adding dynamic processors (GEQ, PEQ, aural enhancers, not FX) in the channel or main inserts vs. between the mixer and power amp? Example: let's say I do use mic channel #1's direct output to feed the monitor amp. Would I be better off sticking the GEQ in the channel insert or placing it between the channel output and amp?

Riis

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Example: let's say I do use mic channel #1's direct output to feed the monitor amp. Would I be better off sticking the GEQ in the channel insert or placing it between the channel output and amp?

Riis

if you have an EQ for it, there's no reason to run the monitor send back through a channel.

aux out --> EQ --> monitor amp

[darranwil]

Def get a 31 band eq.

The riggs we run are stereo on the tops, mids, and mid bass, and the subs in Mono. Bass has a real issue in square rooms with standing waves and getting out of phase which cancels out the punch of the subs and makes the whole mix muddy.

Get you a decent analysis mic (Behringer ECM8000 is fine) and Room EQ Wizard or RTA Live software on your laptop.

Setup your PA, run some pink noise though the PA at a decent volume (85-95db) and use the laptop to get a good reading then eq the PA to cancel out the peaks and valleys.

Always mono the subs.

darran

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by darranwil

Get you a decent analysis mic (Behringer ECM8000 is fine) and Room EQ Wizard or RTA Live software on your laptop.

Setup your PA, run some pink noise though the PA at a decent volume (85-95db) and use the laptop to get a good reading then eq the PA to cancel out the peaks and valleys.

Always mono the subs.

darran

That's pretty much what the DRPA+ is supposed to do on its own....okay, with a little help from the operator. The DRPA adjusts the EQ for a flat response (there are other options) and the operator can tweak for room anomalies with 5 bands of para EQ (3 for the high-end, 2 for the low).

It worked in my living room....let's see if it functions as well at our two gigs Saturday (one outside, the other in a larger hall).

Riis

[walterw]

Originally Posted by darranwil

Get you a decent analysis mic (Behringer ECM8000 is fine) and Room EQ Wizard or RTA Live software on your laptop.

Setup your PA, run some pink noise though the PA at a decent volume (85-95db) and use the laptop to get a good reading then eq the PA to cancel out the peaks and valleys.

Everything I've read from the real pros says not to use an EQ to flatten out an RTA display, especially not to boost up the "valleys" on the display. Those valleys are room cancellations, and EQ will not fix that! Only things like steering delay, phase flipping, or moving things around physically will fix that. Boosting at those nulls will just make things sound worse.

[darranwil]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

That's pretty much what the DRPA+ is supposed to do on its own....okay, with a little help from the operator. The DRPA adjusts the EQ for a flat response (there are other options) and the operator can tweak for room anomalies with 5 bands of para EQ (3 for the high-end, 2 for the low).

It worked in my living room....let's see if it functions as well at our two gigs Saturday (one outside, the other in a larger hall).

Riis

Right on, haven't used the new DRPA+, we have the older models in our racks. Looks like I'm going to have to make my boss upgrade 8*). I'd still run your subs if you have them mono.

I can promise the outside gig will be much easier to tweak, just make sure if the temp changes majorly to tweak your top/mid/sub delays. We do a lot of outdoor festivals and once the sun goes down everything changes.

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/...t/refract.html

Which RTA mic did you happen to pick up?

darran

[darranwil]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Roger that. I need something with which I can react quickly and is halfway familar to the other band members. Example:

Me: Ricky, go pull down the 4 khz slider to -3.


Ricky: Durrr.....okay, George!

FTR, Mark pointed out that, in his experience, trouble-spots most commonly occur in the 400 hz and 4 khz regions.

Thanks

Riis

FYI, on our Turbosound rig it's around 600-650hz pretty regularly.

http://sft.sourceforge.net/

Here is Simple Feedback Trainer for your "board monkey" if you've got one. Doesn't take long to get those down. It's much better to be able to hit the proper EQ range on the 31 band eq on the fly then riding the board faders and channel eq's.

darran

[darranwil]

Originally Posted by walterw

run your mixer
i vote for mono, as stereo is useless in little clubs; you need way more gear and processing, and whatever you pan left, it just means that folks on the right don't hear it. plus, fighting feedback in stereo means trying to grab two faders at once!

Only If your panning hard left and right. Which I've never seen done. You aim for a seperation that reflects the instrument locations onstage or the drum placement (except for hats). We're talking 2-15 degrees at most on the pan knobs.


Which 2 faders are you refering to? The Master output or subgroup faders?



darran

[Munjibunga]

The EQ in the DRPA works fine, but not on the run. I agree that a two-channel graphic works better in a live situation. I use a DR260, and have been happy with the feedback supression most of the time, but it's best that you get your stage monitors and PA properly arranged to minimize feedback without it. Injudicious application of compression, especially in the monitors, can make dealing with feedback a living nightmare.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by walterw

...fighting feedback in stereo means trying to grab two faders at once!

Originally Posted by darranwil

Which 2 faders are you refering to? The Master output or subgroup faders?

darran

sorry, i meant "sliders", as in the sliders for a particular frequency on both the left and the right main EQs.

[GregShadoan]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I use a DR260, and have been happy with the feedback supression most of the time, .

With a 260 you can attach a laptop and have the 1/3 octaves on the screen, just as easy as an outboard unit, making the addtional unit redundant.
Laptop at FOH, also makes a great walkin-out music player. And record right off the board with it all at the same time.:-)