di box connection

[Rockin Mike]

Some say if the bass player is the employer (i.e. paying the sound man) then said bass player has the right to insist on getting sound to the board any way he wants.

Otherwise since the house is paying the sound man can do things any way he wants.

Doesn't add up for me. The house is paying the sound man to reinforce the band, to make them sound good. I've never heard of a house telling the sound man "and use a DI box for the bass".

So, exactly how to reinforce the band is still a negotiation between the sound man and the band.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by Rockin Mike

Some say if the bass player is the employer (i.e. paying the sound man) then said bass player has the right to insist on getting sound to the board any way he wants.

Otherwise since the house is paying the sound man can do things any way he wants.

Doesn't add up for me. The house is paying the sound man to reinforce the band, to make them sound good. I've never heard of a house telling the sound man "and use a DI box for the bass".

So, exactly how to reinforce the band is still a negotiation between the sound man and the band.

Agree but you are assuming there is a single concrete definition of "sounds good."

In my experience everybody has a slightly different idea of what "sounds good." If there is a disagreement about what "sounds good" then who gets the final say?

You are asserting that the bass player for each band is the final authority of what the mix is going to be in the club that night. While I respect your opinion, my experience is otherwise. The reason why venues hire a good "sound man" is to ensure that the venue has a consistently "good sound" from night to night.

[RobbieNuke]

Few venues hire a "good" sound man because he is just that. They (and most bands) hire a sound company usually for a combination of price/reliability/availability, not necessarily their mixing skills.

Some sound men are like lemmings when it comes to getting a bass sound... they just blindly reach for the DI every time. Again, going back to the Mic vs DI; there are those that automatically grab some cheap-ass DI or start looking for the DI out on the amp. They are just flabbergasted that I pull out my own mic! On one occasion it got down right confrontational! He told me if I didn't use his cheap-ass DI (a old Whirlwind from the 70's that rattled when handled) he would not put me in the mix! I said "Fine, I'll just turn my Ampeg SVT up louder then... doesn't matter to me!" He eventually, but begrudgingly, plugged my mic in. It was at that point he wanted me to play at a 10 watt bedroom practice level!

One of the issues, of course, is good "sound". I am not concerned with that for this discussion... being subjective as it is. However, when I play I initially verify my rig is dead quiet from bass to amp with everything in between... when attempts to use a DI result in any sort of noise (whether it be a 60 Hz ground loop, dimmer pack noise, etc) I will insist on using a mic if after a few attempts at reversing ground lift or polarity switches the noise does not dissipate. Why would any soundman (good or bad) prefer noise in the PA system over using a microphone at that point? It's not like obtaining good results are difficult or that one more open mic on stage takes the mix beyond some mystical threshold.

This was the reason I insisted on a mic in my example above. We tried his DI and the noise level was higher than my signal level. He actually began using that for FOH levels! I suggested trying out my two DI... one in the pedal board (quieter, but still injected some noise) and another between amp and speaker (which he wouldn't even try because he was afraid it would damage the PA system and didn't want to be responsible... this is when I found out he was just a cheap operator sub-contracted by the PA owner). I later talked to the actual owner who stated he never DI's in that room because of the noise!

Sound men, like musicians, also need to learn the art of negotiation and compromise. I love my SVT, but also know it is not the best amp for every occasion... and have several other rigs to choose from that I try to be appropriate for the room/stage/audience.

Sometimes just the vocals and kick drum in the PA is a good thing. Sometimes the audience actually enjoys hearing a band playing/sounding like a real 3-dimensional band, not the 2-dimensional band the sound man wants to create.

[Rockin Mike]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Agree but you are assuming there is a single concrete definition of "sounds good."

In my experience everybody has a slightly different idea of what "sounds good." If there is a disagreement about what "sounds good" then who gets the final say?

You are asserting that the bass player for each band is the final authority of what the mix is going to be in the club that night. While I respect your opinion, my experience is otherwise. The reason why venues hire a good "sound man" is to ensure that the venue has a consistently "good sound" from night to night.

Re-read.
I said "some say the bass player has the right if he is paying the sound man" - that was referring to what others have previously said in this thread.

I said it should be a negotiation between the band and the sound man.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

If there is a disagreement about what "sounds good" then who gets the final say?

You are asserting that the bass player for each band is the final authority of what the mix is going to be in the club that night.

i don't think anybody is asserting that at all!

the way i see it, my "authority" as a soundguy begins at the female end of the XLR cable i present to the musician. what the player gives me is their choice, what i do with it is mine.

(and again, when everybody involved has their s**t together there's no conflict, because the soundguy knows that what the band wants will work and the band knows that the soundguy will make what they give him sound right.)

[thumbknuckle]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Agree but you are assuming there is a single concrete definition of "sounds good."

In my experience everybody has a slightly different idea of what "sounds good." If there is a disagreement about what "sounds good" then who gets the final say?

You are asserting that the bass player for each band is the final authority of what the mix is going to be in the club that night. While I respect your opinion, my experience is otherwise. The reason why venues hire a good "sound man" is to ensure that the venue has a consistently "good sound" from night to night.

The dude sounds like what the dude sounds like.

Trying to play producer to some band who's internal working relationships and sensibilities you know nothing about during a 15 minute sound check is both disrespectful and stupid.

You mix the band you've got, not the one you wish you had.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by thumbknuckle

You mix the band you've got, not the one you wish you had.

ha!

donald rumsfeld FTW

[RobbieNuke]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

FYI there is a fundamental physical difference between how a mic and DI capture sound, it is not an arbitrary/random distinction.

[size="2"]I'm explaining my experiences concerning some sound men and their insistence on using ID boxes over mics. How could anyone, at this point, assume that I did not know the "fundamental physical difference of how a mic and DI capture sound"? This is the sort of condescending attitude I experience with sound men.

The other proof of that is their snob attitude is with feedback eliminators. Try suggesting those devices and watch them have a fit! "Oh a good sound man doesn't need them, they mess-up the sound". This coming from the same guys who are fighting monitor squeal all night!

Again, these are the same guys suggesting I quit hauling my bass amp/cabinet and use a pre-amp/DI unit and just have the monitor feed me bass signal. Like I really want pristine sound of vocals and other instruments to be modulated by riding my bass notes all night. Sorry, these are NOT the people you want to ever be in total control of your sound!

[G3Mitch]

i really like this astronaut fella. working with him would be a breeze

[G3Mitch]

Originally Posted by walterw

i don't think anybody is asserting that at all!

the way i see it, my "authority" as a soundguy begins at the female end of the XLR cable i present to the musician. what the player gives me is their choice, what i do with it is mine.

(and again, when everybody involved has their s**t together there's no conflict, because the soundguy knows that what the band wants will work and the band knows that the soundguy will make what they give him sound right.)

i like the sound of this. it really is that simple, as a bassist who has a good bass, good amp w/xlr out, a sansamp at the end of his pedal chain, and a good mic, of course

i figured if i'm gunna be a bassist who uses effects, i should be ready with all gear needed as to avoid confrontation. I like to be mic'd, I'm not someone who would be a prick to a soundguy who refuses to mic me, but rather have other options that would get me the same/similar results to get the sound of my band the way we intend it to be.

Surely any good sound dude would respect that you have thought about this, and shown up with options rather than demand a certain way of doing things? I haven't had a particularly bad experience with any, and i suspect this might be why.

[RobbieNuke]

It has been due to 'bad experiences' with a few soundmen over time that I changed from being a complacent, co-operating performer to lean more towards the demanding performer side of the fence. I bring lot's of options too; an active DI (in my pedal board); a passive DI for my amp (a pre-amp out or speaker emulator); and my own mic/stand.

It's mostly because during any sound check with any DI box (mine, house, or whoever) that any undesirable electrical noise appears in the system I want it eliminated or minimized. If I toggle ground loop switches, change cables, change position, or swap other DI boxes and can not eliminate or drastically reduce the noise then I want a mic (mine preferably). That, to me, seems like a reasonable request!

It's the sound guy that want's to settle for a noisy DI Box signal (and therefore a crappy bass guitar signal) and fight's me on the use of a mic; which will eliminate the noise all together and give a 'better' (i.e. no noise) bass signal to FOH. My question really is; why would any sound man prefer a noisy bass guitar signal? Really?

It's really not the battle of mic vs DI as to which is better sounding as the ideal transducer for putting bass guitar into FOH (very subjective issue and not my point), it's when does one let go of preconceived notions/habits/etc to get a noise free bass signal into FOH.