DI'ing your rig to FOH

[dbassman59]

How many of you DI to your PA system when playing live? Especially in bars and neighbourhood pubs (small venues)

I would think this is would be the IDEAL scenario for any size gig. But I am still learning ...

Providing you have room on the mixing board (I know there are a lot of you like me who rarely have the luxury of a sound man) .... why wouldn't you DI to PA and let the PA carry a full and balanced mix throughout the venue?

What are the advantages / disadvantages that I may not be aware of? Is there something I'm missing?

[SteveC]

If there's a PA I'm in it. I never EQ my amp for FOH. FOH tone and stage tone are different. I always send a flat signal to the FOH and then I EQ my stage amp to suite the stage/room.

PA always caries the room. My stage amp is for monitoring. My amp only caries the room for my jazz combo gigs.

[Dave Martin]

The vast majority of the gigs I've done in my life have had no sound man - and only the vocals (and acoustic guitars, if present) in the PA. (Keep in mind that I started playing professionally in the early 1970's, but I've run sound for bands, and have played in venues seating anywhere from about 25 people to 50,000 people.)

The key to success - either with or without a sound guy - is for the musicians to learn how to balance themselves on stage; remember that a sound guy CANNOT make any of the musicians any quieter, only louder. If the band members understand dynamics, they can work without a sound guy to turn up solos and such, because the band members do it themselves. If they don't understand how to play dynamically, then all a sound guy can do is try to make up for the band's lack of expertise by riding faders all night.

The downside of running everything through the PA without a soundman is that you have no idea what the tone and relative levels between the instruments might be through the PA - your sound guy can compensate for some of that, but there's no way for you to know what the heck is going on - unless your monitor mix is exactly the same as your house mix, including the volume of the monitors.

I'll go ahead and sound like an old guy and add that most pop, rock and country bands have stage volumes that are too loud for the rooms in which they play; if the drummer beats the crap our of the drums, they'll be annoying even BEFORE the rest of you start playing. If the guitarist thinks that he can only get 'his' tone when his amp is on 11 (especially if that amp is sitting on the floor and blowing out past his knees instead of pointing at his head), you're also going to have issues.

Great musicianship minimizes the need for a sound guy - crappy musicianship can't really be saved by the presence of a sound guy.

Good luck!

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

The vast majority of the gigs I've done in my life have had no sound man - and only the vocals (and acoustic guitars, if present) in the PA. (Keep in mind that I started playing professionally in the early 1970's, but I've run sound for bands, and have played in venues seating anywhere from about 25 people to 50,000 people.)

The key to success - either with or without a sound guy - is for the musicians to learn how to balance themselves on stage; remember that a sound guy CANNOT make any of the musicians any quieter, only louder. If the band members understand dynamics, they can work without a sound guy to turn up solos and such, because the band members do it themselves. If they don't understand how to play dynamically, then all a sound guy can do is try to make up for the band's lack of expertise by riding faders all night.

The downside of running everything through the PA without a soundman is that you have no idea what the tone and relative levels between the instruments might be through the PA - your sound guy can compensate for some of that, but there's no way for you to know what the heck is going on - unless your monitor mix is exactly the same as your house mix, including the volume of the monitors.

I'll go ahead and sound like an old guy and add that most pop, rock and country bands have stage volumes that are too loud for the rooms in which they play; if the drummer beats the crap our of the drums, they'll be annoying even BEFORE the rest of you start playing. If the guitarist thinks that he can only get 'his' tone when his amp is on 11 (especially if that amp is sitting on the floor and blowing out past his knees instead of pointing at his head), you're also going to have issues.

Great musicianship minimizes the need for a sound guy - crappy musicianship can't really be saved by the presence of a sound guy.

Good luck!

Great post, Dave! I do a LOT of sound from club stages... and I'm an old guy too. I can add that I always start building a mix from ''what's the least we can get away with in the PA'' perspective. That kind of thinking forces you to consider your limiting factor, your loudest instrument, usually your drums, though not always, if amp stacks are involved, for instance. In venues where you can get away w/vocals only in the PA, great, I say! Typically acoustic instruments are next in, followed by keys & horns. Then, if the venue or style of music requires that the drums be mic'ed, the bass goes in too... at least that's my approach. It always helps if you can get good advice on the room sound from a trusted, knowing ear. Ya know, no one in a club has ever asked me to turn the band UP!

[Honk'n_down-low]

In my experience if you sound good as a band and have the option of having a good sound guy they are so worth it and make a huge difference on how good you will sound in a given room.

Without a sound man and connecting DI into the PA - I always try to get out front for Sound Check and hear what FOH sounds like versus the stage - if you can do this and adjust effectively you can have a good sound. Some rooms lend themselves to sounding good and others you might have to tweak your sound more. Also, the room empty and full can make a huge difference so if you can get out front during the first Song (assuming the place filled up - lol) you can check your sound again and adjust.

[dbassman59]

Interesting responses ... Fortunately my guitar player and I are wireless ... so we can wonder out front and check the sound out ...

Even though I've played live for over 20 years I'm still trying to learn and perfect ... I like the comment about sending FOH a pre signal and let the board balance it ...

I'm just beginning to learn how to EQ my sound on stage ... funny I never saw the trees for the forest before to this regard ..

What our goal is .. is to get quieter and quieter ... let the audience talk at their tables when they want .... the barkeepers like this too ...

[hbarcat]

Every response so far is gold. Takes notes, kids.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

The vast majority of the gigs I've done in my life have had no sound man - and only the vocals (and acoustic guitars, if present) in the PA. (Keep in mind that I started playing professionally in the early 1970's, but I've run sound for bands, and have played in venues seating anywhere from about 25 people to 50,000 people.)

The key to success - either with or without a sound guy - is for the musicians to learn how to balance themselves on stage; remember that a sound guy CANNOT make any of the musicians any quieter, only louder. If the band members understand dynamics, they can work without a sound guy to turn up solos and such, because the band members do it themselves. If they don't understand how to play dynamically, then all a sound guy can do is try to make up for the band's lack of expertise by riding faders all night.

The downside of running everything through the PA without a soundman is that you have no idea what the tone and relative levels between the instruments might be through the PA - your sound guy can compensate for some of that, but there's no way for you to know what the heck is going on - unless your monitor mix is exactly the same as your house mix, including the volume of the monitors.

I'll go ahead and sound like an old guy and add that most pop, rock and country bands have stage volumes that are too loud for the rooms in which they play; if the drummer beats the crap our of the drums, they'll be annoying even BEFORE the rest of you start playing. If the guitarist thinks that he can only get 'his' tone when his amp is on 11 (especially if that amp is sitting on the floor and blowing out past his knees instead of pointing at his head), you're also going to have issues.

Great musicianship minimizes the need for a sound guy - crappy musicianship can't really be saved by the presence of a sound guy.

Good luck!

Man that answer should be a sticky!
In fact I would make it appear on top of each new thread posted.
Admin , please ?

From a 50/50 bass player , soundman , old guy.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by fokof

Man that answer should be a sticky!
In fact I would make it appear on top of each new thread posted.
Admin , please ?

From a 50/50 bass player , soundman , old guy.

Thanks for the kind words - is there a forum for curmudgeonly old farts on this forum? I'll sign up....

[Johnny Mack]

good thread! now lets all hope the soundguys are good!

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

I'll go ahead and sound like an old guy and add that most pop, rock and country bands have stage volumes that are too loud for the rooms in which they play

+1 on this... every time I think my band is too loud on stage, all I have to do is sit in with another band and I am astounded how much louder their stage volume is than my band's. We have three electric guitarists and their amps are all 1x10 or 1x12 combos in the 20-40 watt range, we mic them all through the P.A. and they all have plenty of stage volume and still "get their tone". If I show up to a 200 capacity club and the first thing I see is a 100-watt Marshall or Boogie half-stack on the guitarist's side, that's usually a pretty good indication I won't be sticking around long.

[derekd]

I don't know if any single thing has changed my playing and perspective as a musician as much as running sound part time. It was amazing to learn how to hear how the different instruments fit into the sonic landscape. The idea of placing instruments on the canvas with the vocals riding on top was new info.

Making various adjustments to help everyone try to have some distinct sonic space, and have an ear for the big picture, listening with the audience in mind while satisfying the stage mix requests can be a challenge.

There are lots of easy things like mutes for bass drum, plexi screen (our solution), side wash instead of facing the audience with amps, elevating all amps so they are pointing at the player, etc. When stage volumes are so loud that they overpower FOH, then there really isn't much that can be done from the board.

The hardest thing I have found is to get fellow players to understand that what you hear on stage (volume, tone, mix, etc) is not what is heard FOH. I STRONGLY recommend all musos taking a few turns at the board for a show, as it will most likely change your perspective.

[mozarwasagenius]

Originally Posted by SteveC

If there's a PA I'm in it. I never EQ my amp for FOH. FOH tone and stage tone are different. I always send a flat signal to the FOH and then I EQ my stage amp to suite the stage/room.

PA always caries the room. My stage amp is for monitoring. My amp only caries the room for my jazz combo gigs.

+1

I've asked my soundman... he does NOT want a post signal from me. He forgets about the preamp on my bass which I employ mightily

[bass dan]

i have recently have gone to using a di/preamp instead of a amp at all. in most cases it always sounds better foh than on stage. i wish i had a dollar for everytime i wished the stage sound was as good as it was out front.
ditching the amp has done wonders for the stage sound. i will have to note that this is with other musicians not using amps. we are all running thru di/preamp boxes or mic's and letting the stage monitors carry all the sound on stage. it has really helped improve the dynamics of the band.
before i decided to try this i couldnt find to many folks doing this, so i was hesitant. most everyone was di'ing from there amps. the first night i tried the di/preamp only route it was like night and day.
this may not work for alot of folks, especially ones that are competing against loud guitar amps. for the syle of music i'm playing this has been the way to go. the sound guys i have dealt with have had no problem taking a post eq signal from me. it really has givin me a better since of how well the music is mixing together.

[JustDavid]

Lots of great input from folk with a lot more experience & wisdom than I.

Me, I'm ALWAYS going to plug a line from my DI into the snake. Even if it's not needed for the venue. It's a turf thing, & I'm not going to give up that turf. The downsides of that seem to be that we might need to limp by at some future massive gig with the 2 floor toms sharing a mic, or our 2 guitarists might have to share the same acoustic guitar that is "needed" in 2 songs the entire night. Tough; I'm not getting assigned to "channel 17" on a 16 channel board.