Drum micing question

[Vic Winters]

When a sound guy mics a drum set, especially toms and snare, why is the mic placed on top instead of on the bottom? My understanding is that the bottom/resonator is where the majority of the sound comes from. Also the actual snare wires are on the bottom of the snare drum. It seems @$$ backwards, like trying mic the rear plate of a speaker. It further confuses me that they mic the resonator of the kick drum. Why is the kick drum an exception aside from the fact that it'd be cumbersome to place a kick mic right next to a kick pedal? Wouldn't micing the other resonators also make things less cumbersome, as well as eliminate any chance of mic to stick contact?

Can someone help me to figure this out?

[deaf pea]

There's often too much "boom" caused by the poor acoustics of the room (standing waves = "certain notes" - or frequencies - that seem to excite the room, causing a VERY uneven frequency response) . . . a technique that can help is to emphasize (with mic placement AND EQ) the initial impact of the drumstick (or bass drum beater) hitting the drum head . . .

And regarding your question about the snare drum's snares, 2 mics are usually used to capture the sound of the snare drum . . . 1 above, aimed at the point of impact, the other below (and 180 degrees out-of-phase) aimed at the snares . . .

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by Vic Winters

...My understanding is that the bottom/resonator is where the majority of the sound comes from...

Re-reading your post, while it may be true that "the majority of the sound comes from" the bottom head, that is also the cause of the problem of a lack of "clarity" and "punch" in a "boomy" environment.

The "ideal" sound of a drum can be caracterized as a PARTICULAR blend of impact and resonance . . .

[sonic assassin]

the underside of a snare often sounds aenemic and horrible. it can be blended in to taste.. but most often isnt used in live sound. theres as much sound coming off the top as there is the bottom.

if you only mic the bottom, you wont get the attack. it'll be a dull thud and drum sustaining.

[deaf pea]

In regards to kick drum mic placement, often the mic IS placed near the point of beater impact, but actually INSIDE the drum! (If the mic were to be placed near and beside the kick pedal, it would need to be 180 degrees out-of-phase)

The distance (from the beater's impact to the mic) affects the EQ balance of the sound . . . closer to the beater = mostly mids and highs . . . even with the other head (resonance head) = balanced sound . . . further away = more "bottom" than "click" . . .

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

(If the mic were to be placed near and beside the kick pedal, it would need to be 180 degrees out-of-phase)

maybe in studio stuff.. but live.. not really. there is nothing for it to cancel with. flipping it's polarity would make it sound the exact same because it is flipped against nothing.

in recording, if your kick has no low end when the OH's are added in the mix, you have a phase issues. but live, everything is spot miced and there are rarely overheads. most people are using spot mics on cymbals now, or just leaving them un-miced.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

the underside of a snare often sounds aenemic and horrible...

True . . . but using 2 mics (up/down 180") can really sound great with a well-tuned/well-maintained snare drum!

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...it can be blended in to taste...

Yep . . .

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...but most often isnt used in live sound...

In MY experience the 2 mic, up/down 180" setup is the most common usage in live sound . . . YMMD

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...theres as much sound coming off the top as there is the bottom...

But neither one gives a well-balanced (frequency-wise) image of the snare drum BY ITSELF . . .

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...if you only mic the bottom, you wont get the attack. it'll be a dull thud and drum sustaining.

True that ONLY micing the bottom won't result in much attack, but I don't agree with the "dull thud" description . . . "dull"?!?!?
micing the snares is all about highs and high mids!

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

maybe in studio stuff.. but live.. not really. there is nothing for it to cancel with. flipping it's polarity would make it sound the exact same because it is flipped against nothing...

I'm not talking about "cancalation" . . . I'm talking about speaker cone movement!

The sound resulting from a speaker "pushing" (in-phase)* and "pulling" (out-of-phase)** are VERY different . . . if you can't notice any difference, then I guess you need the sharpen your "critical listening" skills . . .

* = impact causes the cone to move OUTWARD at first
** = impact causes the cone to move INWARD at first

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...live, everything is spot miced and there are rarely overheads....

Maybe in YOUR experience, but I see see 10 or 11 (3 or 4 toms) mics/channels of drums EVERY weekend . . .

"spot mics" toms, snare up/down, kick in/out, high hat, ride (and right side crashes/chinas), left side crashes/chinas.

[sonic assassin]

you must go to some pretty ritzy places..

ive never played anywhere, or seen anyone use a top AND bottom mic in a small/medium sized venue. i normally cant see the setup at large places, so i cant account for them. seems a little excessive to me. 2 kick mics live? also seems excessive, but ive seen it. sm91 inside, some generic kick mic out.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

you must go to some pretty ritzy places..

ive never played anywhere, or seen anyone use a top AND bottom mic in a small/medium sized venue. i normally cant see the setup at large places, so i cant account for them. seems a little excessive to me. 2 kick mics live? also seems excessive, but ive seen it. sm91 inside, some generic kick mic out.

Naturally if you're playing a small room, you don't want to run too many live mics. But the top-bottom micing technique has been around for long before you were born and it's a great way to get everything out of the snare. But if only a top mic works for you, it works.

[groooooove]

almost every venue ive played at/seen shows at puts one mic on each head..

id like to experiment with these ideas though..

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Naturally if you're playing a small room, you don't want to run too many live mics. But the top-bottom micing technique has been around for long before you were born and it's a great way to get everything out of the snare. But if only a top mic works for you, it works.

i know a lot of people do it in the studio, but live? ive never seen it, and ive been to a lot of concerts. seems a little pointless

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

i know a lot of people do it in the studio, but live? ive never seen it, and ive been to a lot of concerts. seems a little pointless

Well, you have a degree so we should just shut up and take notes.



I'm sorry, bro...I just couldn't resist that one. Hey, if top micing gets the job done for you, rock. It's not a necessity. My band's drummer usually mics only from the top. Sounds great to me.

[sonic assassin]

right. i know half as much about live sound

ive never liked bottom snare at all, and given that its best to keep things simple live, i cant see anyone using it.

but back on track.. to the OP, try it and you will understand.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

you must go to some pretty ritzy places..

ive never played anywhere, or seen anyone use a top AND bottom mic in a small/medium sized venue. i normally cant see the setup at large places, so i cant account for them...

I guess it really depends on what you mean by "a small/medium sized venue" . . . my band, El Haragan y Compania, usually play concerts to 1000-2500 people a night and the occasional show for 6000 to 35000 . . . so, for me at least, a "small venue" would be 500 people, more or less. And my idea of a "medium-sized venue" would be like the shows that we usually do - 1000 to 2500 people . . .

but if you're talking about less than 100 people for a "small venue", I can see your point . . .

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...2 kick mics live? also seems excessive, but ive seen it. sm91 inside, some generic kick mic out.

That's the usual setup that I've seen, too . . .

[sonic assassin]

yea.. im thinking more like

small: 0-200 people
medium: 200-500
large: 500+

i dont suppose you play a lot of bars..

[Nick Kay]

To the OP:

It's called a resonant head for a reason - it's more resonant! Putting the mics on the back-end of the toms can lead to a lot of mush in tom hits, because the tone doesn't damp out as quickly as it does on the batter side. Plus, you don't get nearly as much of the attack sound on that side - it's very much dulled down.

As for the snare issue... The only time I've seen people mic strictly batter-side for snares is a) out of necessity or b) for a dryer sound.

A) Necessity: you don't have enough mics / channels on the board to get the whole kit into the mix, and you figure you've already got the top of the snare miked, so it's not that big of an issue.

B) Dryer sound: rattling snare wires whenever the beater hits the kick drum or the bassist plays an F# or G can get really annoying - not as much of an issue with a gate, though. Or, you might not want as much of the washy, wiry component of the sound and prefer the snare to act like a high, choppy, attack-heavy tom in the mix.

[Jake of Bass]

For recording and live mixing, micing on top means you get the ATTACK of the sticks hitting the drum heads. Which is a very desirable sound for drums 99.9% of the time. Sometimes micing up the beater and the front of the kick drum simultaneously is a good thing to capture a broader part of the overall qualities, but isn't often used as micing the front alone generally captures enough of the attack of the kick, has more "oomf".

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

yea.. im thinking more like

small: 0-200 people
medium: 200-500
large: 500+...

OK . . .



I CAN see your point . . . why use mics on the drums if you're playing in such a small place? (I'd probably only suggest a mic in the kick drum!)

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...i dont suppose you play a lot of bars...

Not usually . . .

Like I said, we normally play to crowds of 1000-2500 at places like the Fillmore Auditorium in San Francisco, Roseland Ballroom in Portland, OR, the Latin Quarter in Midtown Manhattan (NYC), the International Ballrooms in Atlanta and Houston, Far West in Fort Worth, etc. and to larger crowds at the Los Angeles Sports Arena (6000+), the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago (4000+), Mexico City's Zocalo (main square) (12000+) and Festival Vive Latino at Foro Sol (35000+) . . .


But we HAVE played in bars that fit your "medium to large venue" criteria (200-500+) . . . it's just that at those gigs it was wall-to-wall standing room only!

[sonic assassin]

your typical venues > my typical venues haha

they mic all the drums because they are ridiculous and everything has to be stupid loud. my drummer had to tell the FOH idjit to turn his monitor down last week. what he meant was "turn it off". the stage/room wasnt big enough to need it