Electronic Drums or Acoustic Drums w/ triggers?

[shizoz]

Ok, I've done some searching, and it's a mixed bag really, but I would like to know what some of you do in the situation, cuz I'm sure I'm not the only one...

I run sound (and play bass) at a church with 1000+ seating. Right now we have an acoustic kit with a Plexiglas shield, but you really have to turn the system up to get over the thuddy sound of the drums behind the shield. Well, that leads to volumes that some find less than desirable. I've heard a Vdrum kit running samples via MIDI in the same room, and I gotta say, it sounded way, way better. I understand that the feel of electronic drums suck, and dynamics are hard to pull off. So, I'm wondering what others do? I've seen some mention of acoustic kits modded with triggers to fire samples, but isn't it still acoustically loud? How does that work? Is there a better way to shield the drums? I'd really like to keep acoustic drums, but maybe a Vdrum kit is the answer?? Any of you played one, I mean, how bad is it really?? Any input is greatly appreciated, or if this is in a thread somewhere, feel free to point me in that direction!
Thanks!

[agreatheight]

If the acoustic sound is the problem, a electronic kit the only way to go. They are practically inaudible off the stage. If you have the money for a nicer mesh-headed kit, the feel isn't horrible, either.

[Vinny D]

I am not a drummer...yet I owned both an acoustic & Roland TD12 kit.

IMO nothing beats the sound of a properly tuned acoustic drum kit...but, the better electronic kits like the Roland TD12 sound very nice.
If you went for an electronic kit I would still suggest using real cymbals, the electronic ones can sound decent put you get a lot of false triggering from them.

There is one thing with an electronic kit that may or not be a problem for your setup, that is how will the band members hear it?
Do you use wedges or in ear monitors?
If you use in ears it probably won't be a big deal.
If you use wedges for monitoring then it can be a problem.
What I found using the electronic kit with wedges was everyone needed the drums cranked in the monitors so they could hear and feel the drums
kind of defeated the whole purpose of getting an electronic kit....which is why I sold it and bought the acoustic set

There are plenty of things that can be done to help tame an acoustic kit.
Various types of dead ringers and foam inserts can help quiet down a kit alot.
And if the drummer will be cooperative the use of lighter sticks is a huge help.

[D.A.R.K.]

Why not get rid of the shield and make the system work less, have a natural sound, and spend no money?

[naja]

The drummer at my old church had a DW set. It sounded great, but the volume level was an issue. He ended up selling it and got a Roland VDrum TD-20S set. It sounded better than the DW set, and the feel was practically the same. He looked into the plexi-shield, but decided against it once he played the roland set.

The trick to electronics is getting the models that have the small shells. The heads (just a perforated membrane type material) very similar to an acoustic head. IIRC his could be "tuned", which would allow you to tighten or loosen the membrane to suit your preferences. His kit seemed to have the same stick bounce that his DW kit had.

The cymbals were the only downside to the set. They are still rubber, but they do react in a very similar way to acoustic cymbals. The high-hat cymbals fit on a standard high-hat stand, which helped them to feel more natural.

One more thing, if you have enough inputs on stage you can mix the drums from the booth to a certain degree. His set had 8 "direct outs", but they are really 1/4" unbalanced. So you would need to either get enough direct boxes, or let him submix. Our drummer found it easier to create his own kits on the set, each with their appropriate volume levels for each drum.

Here's a PDF of the kit he had:
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media...s_brochure.pdf

[Lexicon]

I could go on and on about how much I love my Vdrums but instead I'll send you here:

http://www.vdrums.com/forum/index.php

Everything you ever wanted to know about electronic drums.

I will say that I recently did my first jam with a bunch of people with my drums through a good PA system and everyone was blown away with how good they sounded. The system I use is probably a little beyond what you want to do though. I run a Roland TD6v as a Midi generator and then pump that signal through a Presonus Firebox. That goes into my Macbook Pro and triggers XLN Audio's Addictive Drums within Garageband. Sounds amazing.

[Lexicon]

FYI.

On the Vdrum website I posted the link for there are many people who have a lot of experience with a Church setting.

[bosozoku]

Electronic drums have come a long way over the years and they can provide some impressive dynamics and flexibility these days. I love my kit, it sounds great, and is easier on my old bones to play these days. +1 for Roland V or higher end Yamaha.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Why not get rid of the shield and make the system work less, have a natural sound, and spend no money?

+1

Originally Posted by naja

...got a Roland VDrum TD-20S set. It sounded better than the DW set...

If he couldn't get an outstanding sound out of a DW kit then dude needs to learn how to tune and play the drums. Or sound guy needs to learn how to mic and mix them.

[b-ron_50]

Being a drummer (that's right, bass is my secondary instrument, sorry) I have to agree that nothing beats an good acoustic set. I use to play drums in a similar situation, a church with 1000+. We had an electric kit for a long time. The sound was nice but the switch was ultimately made to go to an acoustic set. Honestly, everyone loved the acoustic set a lot more, not just the drummers.

Are you just using a plexi glass shield? Maybe look into one of the drum isolation booths...My college had one in the recording studio.

also, how do the drummer(s) feel about switching?

[Jimbob Jones]

We're having a similar problem at my church; Most often I just get creative with the EQ. When we run events offsite we usually take a TD-9 and it sounds OK. IMO triggering drums is just an unnecesary headache; either mic or go electric.

As for isolation, we use a light plexi shield that really just takes the top off of the snare and cymbals; this is just right, as they can be a bit overpowering without it. (that is, the cymbals overpower the mains without being mic'd!). More often than not I don't have the overhead mic running through the system at all, or just very quietly, EQ'd/positioned to pick out the ride.

And as for Isolation booths, IMO they are the most useless invention since the inflatible dartboard and chocolate teapot: they trap the sound and bounce it about everywhere so everything bleeds into all the mics, they look ridiculous on stage, and they pretty much stop the drummer from communicating with the rest of the band, which is pretty vital, if you ask me.

[fokof]

I agree with all those who say that acoustic drums is the best , that is un-questionable , BUT In the OP circumstance where low or no stage sound is a must , they are the only alternative. Mesh heads are a must.

It's the same argument with my VB99 , of course , a real '69 Pbass with a real Mutron and a real SVT/810 is better but the practicality of having EVERYTHING under one small unit is very nice. For a "live" situation , there is no way to tell the difference , for a VB99 anyways , maybe for a Vdrum the cymbals are the the worst part.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by shizoz

I run sound (and play bass) at a church with 1000+ seating. Right now we have an acoustic kit with a Plexiglas shield, but you really have to turn the system up to get over the thuddy sound of the drums behind the shield.

Have you had the drummers try using Hot Rods instead of regular sticks?

[Edu Fettermann]

Well, in my church we use a V-drum kit and it sounds decent. The only time we use acoustic drums is around november, when the youth group does their youth conference, with rock bands and all. For our average church members, however, the acoustic kit sounds way too loud, specially because most of the drummers have really "heavy hands" (sorry, don't know if this makes sense in English, in portuguese we use this expression to say that the drummer plays too loud). The V-drum is a nice option for a mid-size church, specially if you have a cool MIDI bank and use real cymbals.

[DWBass]

Why not just have the drummers use Hot Rods?

[Jimbob Jones]

For me, hotrods are like playing in gloves; totally destroys your tone.

Fine for practice, but not for live (IMO)

[jmain]

I've encountered this issue in the last two churches I've played. Some of it could be mitigated with technique (dynamics 101 for drummers). But mostly, everything is cranked over the acoustic drums. I love the sound of an acoustic set played with touch, but even then its often too loud.

So usually the rest of the band, including vocals, are buried and you mostly just hear the drums. What's worse, is that one church uses a smallish room for the youth and the volume is unbearable for any period of time (easily over 100db).

I think Lexicon has the best solution, but can be pricey for some congregations. A nice V-drum or similar triggering VST drums to the board. FOH levels will be nicer and if you're using in ears, you won't have to crank the volume to get over the drums on stage (even in the isolation booth at my present church).

And the argument of money is a bit odd. At my last church, or WL/guitarist was playing a $2k head into a $1k cabinet using a $3k+ guitar. But he wanted to argue about the price of the V-Drum kit. Its really no argument at that point. And we're talking about the church paying for the kit, not the individual (everyone uses the house kit, and brings whatever to amend the kit).

I guess I may have an opinion on this.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by shizoz

I've seen some mention of acoustic kits modded with triggers to fire samples, but isn't it still acoustically loud?

Yes.

And if you're already using plexi shields and it's still too loud, then it would appear acoustic drums are not for your situation.

V-Drums are the cutting edge. Most accomplished drummers can quickly adapt to the subtle differences in dynamics. And sound people can have complete control.

It sounds to me like that's what you should be looking into.

[DWBass]

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

For me, hotrods are like playing in gloves; totally destroys your tone.

Fine for practice, but not for live (IMO)

Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do for the better of the band. If the concensus is that 'you' are too loud, then ya gotta bring it down 1000! The drummer is going to have to learn dynamics. Can't just bang away all the time. Makes everyone else play louder. And also doesn't bode well for the lucky guy who has to stand on the snare side off the kit (been there, done that). I've had drummers put gels or towels on the snare in an effort to control volume.

[gflowers]

I play with a group that does a lot of private and corporate type gigs and we had the same problem with acoustic drums. The drummer knows one volume only (LOUD) and the rest of the band always had to get at or above his volume just to be heard. The volume was a real problem for us at certain gigs so we made the decision years ago that the only way to control volume was for everyone, including the drummer, to go direct. Keyboards and bass run direct, guitar runs thru a POD X3 and the drummer went with a Hart Dynamic kit and Roland machine. He hated the looks of the kit more than anything and eventually replaced all of the heads on his Ludwig acoustic kit with mesh heads and Roland triggers. He uses the latest version of V-cymbals. It has solved more than the volume issue for us. He's happy looking cool behind his old Ludwig kit, our volume is no longer a problem, we can go from very quiet to very loud, no more wedges and power amps, and we've probably saved our hearing with IEMs. It was a sizeable investment, but we also eliminated a lot of cost by not having to have backline, wedges, power amps or the larger trailer to cart it all around in. It's made setup/teardown a breeze, no more monitor feedback, and no more volume headaches at the end of the night. I know you purists out there will belly-ache, but it works for us. I only wish I had this available years ago.