epic bass mic?

[joeypistol]

So i was down at the local music store looking at mics and the guy showed my the Audio-Technica ATM250DE. it seemed really sick and could be cool for micing my bass cab.. what do you guys think cuz I'm shopping for something and ive narrowed it to Beta52, d112 and this beast

From the site

Home : Products Overview : ATM250DE

The ATM250DE dual-element instrument microphone features cardioid condenser and hypercardioid dynamic capsules combined in a single housing. Audio-Technica’s innovative use of two polar patterns is ideal for kick drum: the hypercardioid dynamic element focuses tightly on the aggressive attack of the beater, while the condenser captures the round tonalities of the shell. The elements are positioned in a perfect phase relationship, something practically impossible to achieve with two separate microphones. Includes a professional isolation clamp to provide secure mounting, versatile positioning and effective dampening of unwanted mechanical noise.

•Audio-Technica’s proven dual-element design features two elements (condenser and dynamic) enclosed in a single housing


•Neodymium dynamic element provides punch and attack, while the condenser element captures the full audio spectrum


•Elements are positioned in a perfect phase relationship, something practically unachievable with two separate microphones


•Perfect for kick drum, guitar amps, percussion and other instruments


•Integral 80 Hz HPF switch and 10 dB pad (condenser element)


•Versatile mounting options and effective dampening of mechanical noise thanks to included AT8471 isolation clamp


•Corrosion-resistant contacts from gold-plated XLRM-type connector


•Rugged, all-metal design and construction for years of trouble-free use



SPECIFICATIONS
ELEMENTS Condenser, dynamic
POLAR PATTERNS Cardioid (condenser)
Hypercardioid (dynamic)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 40-20,000 Hz (condenser)
40-15,000 Hz (dynamic)
LOW FREQUENCY ROLL-OFF 80 Hz, 12 dB/octave (condenser)
OPEN CIRCUIT SENSITIVITY –49 dB (3.5 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa (condenser)
–53 dB (2.2 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa (dynamic)
IMPEDANCE 50 ohms (condenser)
600 ohms (dynamic)
MAXIMUM INPUT SOUND LEVEL 148 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. (condenser)
DYNAMIC RANGE (typical) 122 dB, 1 kHz at Max SPL (condenser)
SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO 68 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa (condenser)
PHANTOM POWER REQUIREMENTS 11-52V DC, 3.5 mA typical (condenser)
SWITCHES Flat, roll-off; 10 dB pad (condenser only)
WEIGHT 320 g (11.3 oz)
DIMENSIONS 143.6 mm (5.65") long,
55.0 mm (2.17") diameter
OUTPUT CONNECTOR Integral 5-pin XLRM-type
CABLE 5.0 m (16.5') dual shielded, 8-conductor cable, 5-pin XLRF-type connector at microphone, two 3-pin XLRM-type output connectors
ACCESSORIES FURNISHED AT8471 isolation clamp for 5/8"-27 threaded stands; 5/8"-27 to 3/8"-16 adapter; soft protective pouch
AUDIO-TECHNICA CASE STYLE R9

[JimmyM]

Out of those 3 mics, the only one I would want is the ATM250DE. Both the Beta 52 and the D112 are way too grossly mid scooped and low end hyped for my tastes. The ATM has a bit of a scoop too, but it's much less severe and it has a nice low end hump in a place that can do some good for bass. A lot of folks like kick mics on their bass cabs, but I hate them because of the mid scooping. The Beta 52 and D112 are made to make your bass drum sound like a basketball on a wood gym floor. That ain't what I'm looking for on bass.

[D.A.R.K.]

i've used the audio technica a lot, on kick, guitar, and bass cabs.
ime the best asset is that both signals arrive correctly in phase,
as stated.
the mic has a tight, even response.
only down side i can think of is the multi pin to dual xlr specialty cable....
i bought an extra just in case...

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Out of those 3 mics, the only one I would want is the ATM250DE. Both the Beta 52 and the D112 are way too grossly mid scooped and low end hyped for my tastes. The ATM has a bit of a scoop too, but it's much less severe and it has a nice low end hump in a place that can do some good for bass. A lot of folks like kick mics on their bass cabs, but I hate them because of the mid scooping. The Beta 52 and D112 are made to make your bass drum sound like a basketball on a wood gym floor. That ain't what I'm looking for on bass.

We agree again - that's twice :-)

I'd look at the Heil PR40 (available used on eBay for under $250 shipped if you are patient). Or an Audix D4 - $100 used. The Senny 421 is an old (very overpriced) industry favorite. And the EV RE20.

[funkydanbass]

I'm considering the Heil Sound PR-40, Audio Technica ATM250DE and was also looking at the Audix D6...

Is the D4 a wiser choice for bass?

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by funkydanbass

I'm considering the Heil Sound PR-40, Audio Technica ATM250DE and was also looking at the Audix D6...

Is the D4 a wiser choice for bass?

I've never heard the D4. I have used a D6 on kick drums a few times. Lots of boom and click, almost nothing else. Makes the D112(my usual bass drum mic) sound like a measurement mic in comparison. Instant big metal kick drum sound, which is good if that's what you want. It's a pretty cool mic. Sounds kinda like a better Beta 52.

I can't imagine it being very good for a bass amp, at least not by itself.

I am more convinced every day that the RE20 is where it's at. If I've got a guy with a good sounding amp I can pretty much just stick that thing in front of it and be done.

[JimmyM]

D4 is better than the D6, but it still has suppressed mids from 600-1khz. RE20 is where it's at, but the PR 40 is cheaper and goes lower so for me it was a little more where it's at. I use a PR 40 and love it. A PR 35, however, doesn't go as low, but it's cheaper and has great response for a bass.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

D4 is better than the D6, but it still has suppressed mids from 600-1khz. RE20 is where it's at, but the PR 40 is cheaper and goes lower so for me it was a little more where it's at. I use a PR 40 and love it. A PR 35, however, doesn't go as low, but it's cheaper and has great response for a bass.

According both the old and new D4 spec sheets, the before-proximity-effect response is actually pretty flat between 60Hz and 1kHz - it looks to be +/- 1. Above that it gets hot, but it's a wide rise and easy to tame. Below 60Hz, it depends on which sheet you believe - the new one shows a rolloff below 60Hz, the old one shows it solid to 40Hz, and a slower rolloff below that.

The PR40 before-proximity-effect response is flat below 2500Hz, with a very slight and gentle bump above. The bottom is solid to 40Hz, and rolls off a bit below. It would seem to have less proximity effect than most, meaning much less mud to EQ out.

The RE has no real proximity effect. It's a bit rocky above 1K, but no big deal. It's flat to ~70Hz, and rolls off below that.

So on paper - and likely in practice - none are good below the E, some aren't good below the A. But the speakers aren't either, so it may not make a difference. As to which best captures the rest of the spectrum, I think any will do a better job than most of the more popular mics (kick mics mainly), and a used D4 costs half or less what the others cost used.

[JimmyM]

It really doesn't make a difference. 40 hz is plenty. Any of the lower notes you're going to get way more harmonic information from the 2nd harmonic than the 1st. And most soundmen roll off below 60 hz anyway.

To be honest, you should be able to get a good sound with anything but the kick mics, and you'll even find some people who can get great sounds with them. I think the flatter the response is, the better off you are if you want to be heard in the mix, but I've used some mics that you wouldn't think were suited for bass, only to really like the sound.

[Ben Clarke]

Don't overlook the Beyer M88. I would take an RE20 any day, too. Typical modern kick mics are one-tricky for bass cab use.

[funkydanbass]

Cool thanks guys. Info appreciated.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

It really doesn't make a difference. 40 hz is plenty. Any of the lower notes you're going to get way more harmonic information from the 2nd harmonic than the 1st. And most soundmen roll off below 60 hz anyway.

To be honest, you should be able to get a good sound with anything but the kick mics, and you'll even find some people who can get great sounds with them. I think the flatter the response is, the better off you are if you want to be heard in the mix, but I've used some mics that you wouldn't think were suited for bass, only to really like the sound.

But there is some low end there, and the more you keep, the more you have. Which is why I always use a DI - no loss at all in the bottom.

Anyone who high passes is getting rig of the stuff that really gives feeling to the music. Foolish.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

But there is some low end there, and the more you keep, the more you have. Which is why I always use a DI - no loss at all in the bottom.

Anyone who high passes is getting rig of the stuff that really gives feeling to the music. Foolish.

I got your foolish, dude. You want to discuss mixing bass, I'm happy to. You want to call people like me foolish because we like something different than you, you can forget it.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I got your foolish, dude. You want to discuss mixing bass, I'm happy to. You want to call people like me foolish because we like something different than you, you can forget it.

Some things work, some don't. I find that high passing does not. If this is dissent, so be it. Have you tried taking out the usual 80Hz bump, and getting all the below 40 that you can? I have.

"The "satisfied man never improves anything".

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

Some things work, some don't. I find that high passing does not. If this is dissent, so be it. Have you tried taking out the usual 80Hz bump, and getting all the below 40 that you can? I have.

"The "satisfied man never improves anything".

And the arrogant man never learns anything.

[JimmyM]

And BTW, I have done it before, and it usually results in mud. That's why I don't usually do it anymore.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

And the arrogant man never learns anything.

I learn something every show, if not every day.

And one of those things I've learned is that those guys who built the BIG church organ pipes knew what they were doing - they figured out that it's the lowest of the lows that cause the music to invoke the greatest passion in the audience. These days, you're lucky if you get a decent amount of even 60Hz, especially in recordings. This robs music of much of its soul.

[JimmyM]

So you think those pipe organs are all fundamental? OK.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

So you think those pipe organs are all fundamental? OK.

Of course not. But it's in there. It's like a touch - sometimes just a little is all it takes. Sometimes even more is better.

[JimmyM]

Well if bass was the only instrument in a mix I'd let it do whatever it does just like the pipe organ. But I've never needed that much low end to sound heavy in a mix, and the last thing I want is the bass drum stepping on my bass and creating mud. My 810 is huge on the low end and the speakers are rated at around 55-60 hz and I hear the low notes just fine, even on a 5-string. For the stuff I do, 125-200 hz is way more important. If you don't want to high pass it, a tone knob will work just fine, but honestly it makes no difference to me.