First time run through PA - I no likee

[Bredian]

Previously I had been playing gigs with a GK MB115 (200W) with a couple of guitarists using Twin Reverbs (100W). Pretty good to fill a room in a small bar. Easy to hear on stage.

So I do a 6 band thing where we're sharing a back line. GK RB700 (500 watts+-) through a Neo 4x12. Nice rig, played through before, but the sound guy insisted we set the tones at 12 o'clock (neutral), the volume low, and the volume on the bass to max (10). he "let" me play a little with the tones (less bass, more treble with my active bass). Drums mic'd, all amps mic'd w bass amp also direct to PA (1/2 stack Marshall @ lead guitar side, Twin Reverb @ rhythm guitar)

My mistake for listening - not to really bag on the sound guy, who had a large job, just my inexperience with the set up and why.....

All six basses sounded pretty much the same - a sound that only a non bass player would appreciate - anonymous. Maybe I'm biased, but I wasn't there to sound like a Hammond bass pedal.

Extremely low stage volume - not good when the drummer is trying to listen for you.

What I would have done differently: Tone controls to my normal settings.... bass less 20% hi treble maxed, blended in-between. I would have my volume control on the bass set between 40-60%, to have control. Sound check I would play from low to high notes that I need the column consistent with - up to about C# on the G sting - it was weak as was. And more bass volume on stage either at the amp or through my and the drummer's monitors.......

Good learning experience - any other advice out there?


As for gear - that was funny - almost 60 instruments, the number of non Fenders was 4-5 including my backup bass and the EVH my lead player uses - mostly Strats and Ps. Surprised at the dearth of Les Pauls.

[walterw]

OK, telling you anything besides "don't be too loud" is overstepping his place big-time; a suggestion to not over-EQ would be apropos, especially with beginner bands (maxing "high-treble"? ), but not "allowing" you to set the amp how you like is pretty unusual. also, direct-lines from regular guitar amps is a lousy idea.

i would suggest keeping the bass's volume on "10", though; it'll sound stronger and clearer out front and through the amp, and keep your level consistent in the mix.

[TimmyP]

Most of the bassists I work with have too much bass from their rig - at least at a narrow range of frequencies. As none have a parametric EQ to take care of this ubiquitous problem, backing down the lows control - usually a lot - is the only way for them to have any stage volume at all without. A number of them also have a lot of click/clank, which is nothing but a noise in the mix.

[Bredian]

Walterw - Thank you for the help.

My mistake. Checked vid. All amps mic'd + bass amp direct out & mic'd I think. (I edited above)

Regarding the EQ - in another post elsewhere a week ago, I mentioned my active PUP Precision Lyte has a pretty heavy bottom end vs a borrowed passive Hofner Viola that I set up the EQ almost opposite to get the same result.

I do know the tone I'm happy with as I'm playing with another 1-2 gig a month classic rock band.


TimmyP - hard to disagree with that. Like the piano string sound to be available, but I'll roll off the tone controls on the bass to soften it for some tunes.

The venues are small anyway, but this one was maybe 150-180 peeps, 14' deep x 26' deep raised stage with a drum riser - about 2x the size stage I'm usually on.

[MNAirHead]

6 bands in a festival arrangement?

I'd just live with whatever you could put together.

[Happy Face]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

A number of them also have a lot of click/clank, which is nothing but a noise in the mix.

"Good bass players' tracks always sound noisy when soloed. Chuck Rainey's tracks sound like someone's working on a Buick in the background. But plug it into the mix, and the magic is there.

Bare bass tracks, well played, are homely, noisy, scrunchy sounding beasts...but those qualities are the things that punch it through."

Now this quote is from a recording engineer. Perhaps live sound is different?

Or is it just one side of the debate over whether bass should simply be felt and not really heard?

[rockstarbassist]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

6 bands in a festival arrangement?

I'd just live with whatever you could put together.

Yep. Shared bills of 3 or so bands is what we usually do but we all use our own rigs n stuff.

Whenever I've had to use a backline they always request you not mess w/ the onboard amp EQ or anything so I don't. But that's why I play active instruments so I can dial in my tone pretty much how I want even though just a DI.

[Muttleybass]

You going thru a DI should have NO bearing whatsoever on your stage sound. Your amp becomes a sophisticated stage monitor at that point. Mr. Soundman should have listened to what you wanted and done his best to EQ it out front as to what you wanted.

Like Walt said, all he should tell you is to try and keep your volume down, but you should still be able to hear yourself. Also, he should do what he can keep his EQ as close to what you have coming out of your amp.

Sounds like you may have been a victim of Mr. Soundman's inadequacies.

[Syco_bass]

Most sound ppl I work with allow me to send them a post eq signal from my D.I. out on my head. But then again, I've worked with these fine ppl several times. They are working pros and know that my sound is defferent than bassplayer - X. They understand that how I sound has nothing to do with how you sound. They also allow me to mic my cab so that they can blend in some of the cab's tone and percussive qualities. A sound person's job is to make you sound as close to your unique sound as possible. They should be good enough at what they do to make you/the band sound as good as they can sound without being a hassle to them. If doing their job is a hassle, then they aren't live audio engineers. They are P.A. owners.

Just my two cents. Sorry if I have offended anyone, but then again, I probably didn't offend anyone that takes pride in running live audio and takes pride in how the band actually sounds.

[staindbass]

the soundman is supposed to mix the sounds so that the audience hears the band. the soundman should not interfere with the bands sound and character. otherwise, all the bands he mixes will sound the same. the guys making 5-6 grand a week mixing bands who have sold millions of records would never even think of doing such a thing.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Bredian

All six basses sounded pretty much the same - a sound that only a non bass player would appreciate - anonymous. Maybe I'm biased, but I wasn't there to sound like a Hammond bass pedal.

Unfortunately that Hammond bass pedal sound is "good bass tone" in the minds of a lot of FOH engineers, especially at the mid to bottom tiers of the pay scale as well as most churches. I hear that kind of bass tone all the time in live settings (felt but not heard) and it drives me nuts. Can I hear the actual note and some articulation, please?

[walker rosewood]

I don't understand why he couldn't just take a pre-eq signal and leave your stage tone alone?

Most soundguys have habits (good or bad) they've developed from so many other soundguys telling them what to do, but have no idea why. I think you got one of 'those' guys.

[TomB]

I don't mind a sound tech telling me what he/she wants to hear different from the stage, but I tend to draw the line at being told how to do it. While I'm open to suggestions about stage volume, it's their job to figure out how to adjust the house to accommodate what I (we) need on stage, IMO. Sorry, but you're the musician, and the sound tech works for you. Not to sound uppity, but some of these folks don't seem to get this, and you'll need to stand up for your rights. It'll get easier as you do more of it. But you sure won't win 'em all...

[4Mal]

Costs more than your amp I know, but I take my U5 and get my tone and get no arguments. I have a wide degree of acceptability as to what my bass sounds like on stage. Pretty much if everyone else can hear it and it isn't too wronky I'll deal. As long as the foh can hang, with the U5 I know what I'm going to get out front.

[Bredian]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Unfortunately that Hammond bass pedal sound is "good bass tone" in the minds of a lot of FOH engineers, especially at the mid to bottom tiers of the pay scale as well as most churches. I hear that kind of bass tone all the time in live settings (felt but not heard) and it drives me nuts. Can I hear the actual note and some articulation, please?

Hate to throw him under the M3, but me thinks he was a keys player.... translate to keys: he made my Roland sound like a Rhoads



Yea, I'd rather him use a post eq signal so my tone is similar on and off stage.

wanting "my" tone as it cuts through the Marshall amped guitar next door and the over amped kick.

Only the "house" bass guy got a more personal sound - experience.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Bredian

Yea, I'd rather him use a post eq signal so my tone is similar on and off stage.

It's true that a bass cab like a 4x10 or an 8x10 sounds very very much like a PA. The EQ that you'll do to sound good onstage on your 4x10 will translate perfectly on every PA out there in the world.
Good idea !

[Bredian]

Originally Posted by 4Mal

Costs more than your amp I know, but I take my U5 and get my tone and get no arguments. I have a wide degree of acceptability as to what my bass sounds like on stage. Pretty much if everyone else can hear it and it isn't too wronky I'll deal. As long as the foh can hang, with the U5 I know what I'm going to get out front.

Interesting (looked it up).

When I grow up I will look into that.

Don't see any 810s in my future. You have quite a history of equip. Are you light and versatile? is that your pre running through the small GK power amps? speaker cab weight? interesting.

[miltllama]

Originally Posted by TomB

Sorry, but you're the musician, and the sound tech works for you. Not to sound uppity, but some of these folks don't seem to get this, and you'll need to stand up for your rights.

This may be the case when the band directly hires a sound guy/PA, but for 95% of the shows I work on, both the band and the sound company are hired by the same client, generally a production company representing the end client. In that case, the sound tech works for the client, and they get what they want.

If you (the sound guy) have a good working relationship with the producers, they will trust you to make good decisions, and generally leave you alone. This also applies to the band; the client gets what they want, and it's not about making the band happy.

This is not to say that the band couldn't be perfectly happy and have a great experience, and of course creating an optimal environment for the band is the primary job of the monitor tech. My point is, ultimately, it's not all about the band, and nobody likes working with a prima donna, whatever job they happen to be doing.

[DWBass]

This is why I always use a separate DI box giving FOH a clean bass signal. I eq my onstage amp MY way. I've been doing this for close to 40 years! I let FOH mic me once and they had me bring my volume down so low, I was barely audible onstage! No bass in the monitors. I had to rely on what I could hear and feel from the mains! The key word...."ONCE"!

[Doctor Dirt]

My first question when approached to do live shows is what company will be handling the sound! I have turned down more than a few shows because of the FOH.
As for your personal problem I will suggest to add a 4x10 enclosed cab. something like a hartke XL without the horn and porting. Get it up to your shoulders (top of the cab.) and that should give you a nice punch and you don't have to have one of the monitors assist your rig so you can hear it. Everyone else can deal with the stage monitor system to hear you, theres no need for stress on a big band stand loaded with power & speakers and think your not gonna be able to hear yourself play, ridiculous!! Doc





..actually how much does the gig pay is the first question hahahaha!!