Full PAs and Small Bars

[cableguy]

The guys I play with have volume under control which is nice. We use Mackie 15's pole mounted with 1 mackie sub. Both me and the guitarist can run ampless & direct if need be and our drummer has a set of e-drums. Otherwise I use a fEARful 12/6 and the guitarist uses a 1x12 cab. Even when our drummer plays his accoustic kit he's pretty good for the most part with volume control. We play blues/classic rock and can get pretty loud if we wanted to. We tend to save that for the outdoor stuff. A good mix is more impartant to us than trying to be the Who at Leeds.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

That, & many inexperienced bands have inexperienced members, who can't seem to understand that there's an overall sonic environment that they need to fit into, not just themselves. They turn their own volume up to cover all the other sounds that they aren't interested in hearing.

Also, excess volume has a way of covering a number of deficiencies. Inexperienced players cover up rather than fix the problems.

The better, experienced players that I know all can play at reasonable volumes.

OP here,

The band I referenced, too loud and were asked to stop playing and leave, the members are all experienced veterans (all into their 50s) and should know better.

They don't gig much at all and provably feel investing in a real pa would be a waste of money. These guys are unbelievably old school to the point where their blind to their problems and won't change.

They don't even use tuners which is fine, but they also have problems staying in tune.

I agree with;

If club management tells you your too loud your too loud.

Blue

[bassmeknik]

I play mostly smaller clubs and always use a full PA with 2 separate monitor mixes. We are usually in control of stage volume and the singer and/or I go out front (I'm wireless) and make sure the guitarists "from stage" mix is ok. We have had only one volume complaint in the year I have been with these guys (it was soon after we started performing together and had no one out front for reference) and many who knew the band before me have remarked how much better the band sounds now compared with the guy before me (I brought the subs, crossover, and power amps to fill out their PA). I heard the previous bassist before so I know he played pretty well but the difference in the band (other than my fabulous playing...) is the addition of subs completing the PA. I use them at every performance adjusted according to the room and will use a full PA in those little clubs until I can no longer carry that stuff. Fortunately I am in good health and my back is still ok, and the guitarist has agreed to haul the stuff for me so I can now show up with an SVT, 810 cab, 2 basses and a suitcase full of cords in the back of my Saturn Vue and help load the PA in. I really need to get back in the garage and whip out the next cab build, a set of small light weight cabs somewhat like fEarful so I can sell the fridge though. It is the single biggest peice we bring to work and it is clearly overkill but again I can still get it into and out of my car and do love the tone...

[bluewine]

OP here,

Seems like the consensus is what I thought it would be.

A full pa run by an experienced sound man is not going to make a band sound good, however imo it will give them better control over their sound and volume.

Blue

[TinIndian]

We use a full PA at all gigs. Presonus board, JBL Mains and JBL Subs. 3 Floor monitors. The guitarist and I set our amps/cabs at the front of the stage and point them diagonally back across the stage towards the drummer. Everything is DI'd so we don't get into the mix with our amplifiers. Stage volume is kept reasonable (except the singers monitor!) and the FOH is not loud. Not uncommon to have people sitting right in front of the PA while we are playing, I think they are crazy because it is still loud in front of those things.
Hopefully we can bring the stage volume down further since we all switched to IEM's.

[Kmonk]

In my experience I have found that it really depends on the band members and how well they control their stage volume. In one band I was in, the only things we put through the P.A were vocals, keys, kick drum, snare and an overhead mic. Guitars and bass were never in the mix. We always had a great sound and made some good quality live recordings. IN large venues we ran everything through FOH.

In other bands that ran everything through the P.A. the sound wasn't always as good because the guitarists were too loud and basically over powered the FOH mix.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Some will say it's overkill. Anyone else use full PA's in small clubs and bars?

Blue

Regardless the size of the PA, volume is always a variable that you have control over.

I have played gigs where we were asked to turn down so low that stage volume and a tiny bit of PA for vocals would have been enough.

However, if it's any kind of performance where I know the band is responsible for getting people on the floor, I will insist on bringing at least one sub.

I usually want the band to bring the full PA, then we play it by ear to see how much we need. In many small bars I play, I don't even need a lot of monitor. If everyone plays only loud enough on stage to hear themselves in the context of the band, it makes things so much easier. But not many musicians understand this.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by seanm

That is why a full PA works for you. I can, and have, put the lead guitar into the PA. But until they come up with a PA that can turn down the on-stage amp, he never gets turned up.

Most bands cannot control the stage volume, so a full PA makes no sense. Congrats on having a band that understands that!

this

[bassmeknik]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Regardless the size of the PA, volume is always a variable that you have control over.

If everyone plays only loud enough on stage to hear themselves in the context of the band, it makes things so much easier. But not many musicians understand this.

Well said. This comes down to the variable of the other musicians (and our own) ability to play as a team and blend with each other.

[Biggbass]

Full PA gives you control over the volume. Small PA doesn't and usually ends up with guitar amps being too loud.

Yes, We've encountered problematic venue owners/managers. Once loaded into a club where the manager came up to me as I was setting two floor wedges down on the dance floor. I was the only band member there at the time and had only brought in the two wedges. The guy comes up to me and says, with urgency in his voice, " Jesus Christ how many speakers are you guys bringing??!!" I looked at him, looked at the two wedges, and all I could think of to answer him was, "All of them!". He was a PITA all night, complaining about everything. We played the gig and took that place off our list of places to play....too much of a hassle.

[April]

For small rooms my band uses only one speaker, and honestly, the monitors are louder than the speaker. Believe it or not, I either play through a small practice amp or even direct through the PA (although it's harder to lock in with the drummer this way.) The biggest problem is getting the guitarists to keep their amps low ... somehow the volume always creeps up. For a while I felt wimpy not bringing in the big amp rig, but I was able to get used to the lighter load in/out really quickly! Plus, it's made a real difference in how small bar owners feel about booking us.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

How loud were they playing? Were they doing the "Stack" thing cranked to get "tone"?

I have no idea, all I know is they were warned more than once, then the embarrassing, asked to stop playing and leave.

Blue

[1954bassman]

I feel that "bad" sound is more offensive that "loud" sound. My opinion, of course. Personally, I like it loud, but only if the PA sounds good. I do not like bad sounding PAs loud or not. I used to think I didn't like loud drummers, or loud guitar players. Turned out I don't mind good drummers that play loud.

Its not so much the volume as it is bad sound. Combine cheap gear with an inexperienced sound person, and you get trash.

A PA can start sounding really bad, to the point of hurting your ears, and it could very well be a really cheap PA and a knuckelhead sound guy.

[JimmyM]

My band mostly does PA gigs, but we'll occasionally do some vocals-only PA gigs. Never once have we played too loud for the room. Why? Because we know how to set our stuff up for the room, and our goal is not to blast each other out, but to make it sound like a mixed band. I'll go out on the floor during soundcheck and listen and tell people what adjustments they need to make but they're usually very minor.

[bassmeknik]

Originally Posted by bluewine

A full pa run by an experienced sound man is not going to make a band sound good, however imo it will give them better control over their sound and volume.

+1 agreed

[4Mal]

I have the sub but rarely need it inside. My tops go to 65. I'm OK with that in my musical settings. Low stage volume is the key IMO...

[StrangerDanger]

I don't think a full PA is necessary for 99% of small bar gigs. I realize I'm in the minority here but I have experienced both and it seems that a small (300 watts or so) vocal PA is plenty for small bars if everyone in the band is committed to getting the levels right.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

A friends rock band plays bars with only a small pa for vocals.

They recently played a small bar and were asked several times by management to turn down.

Then they were asked to stop playing and were told they would never be asked back.

My rock band plays small bars too, but we use a full pa with subs, mains and stage monitors for all 4 of us. Toms and cymbals miced as well as all amps.

We employ low stage volume, house volume is loud but managed, patrons can talk and hear each other.

We feel we have more control over our sound and volume level using the full pa. We have not had any volume complaints from management at any of the small venues we play.

Some will say it's overkill. Anyone else use full PA's in small clubs and bars?

Blue

The problem is not with the setup, it's with the humans. It's a common problem.

I've done gigs either way. If you work with people who "get it", either can work just fine.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

OP here,

The band I referenced, too loud and were asked to stop playing and leave, the members are all experienced veterans (all into their 50s) and should know better.

They don't gig much at all and provably feel investing in a real pa would be a waste of money. These guys are unbelievably old school to the point where their blind to their problems and won't change.

They don't even use tuners which is fine, but they also have problems staying in tune.

I agree with;

If club management tells you your too loud your too loud.

Blue

Sounds like they weren't experienced with controlling their sound.

I did a restaurant gig with a four piece unit. There was one small PA cab. We were told several times to bring our volume down. Finally the manager told us we either get it under control or leave. We took a break and the three other guys were in a huff, the keyboard player was seriously annoyed because the patrons weren't reall paying attention to him. It's not the first time any of them had taken a music wallpaper type gig so it all cam across as seriously childish... and volumewise I clearly wasn't the problem. I told them that if we were forced to leave, SOMEBODY was going to pay me. that I didn't really care that we could here the flatware clanking off the plates, that's what the gig was.


We went back in, played pianissimo and nobody died. It actually takes skill to do that and they all had the skills, their egos were just in the way.


People need to grow up and understand what the JOB entails and do it professionally or stay the ___* home. Remember who is paying whom. Duh.

Once you surround yourself with people who aren't idiots gigs can not only be more lucrative and plentiful, they can even be fun due to the lack of stress. Unless you thrive on that sort of thing. IME.


*heck

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by 1954bassman

I feel that "bad" sound is more offensive that "loud" sound. My opinion, of course. Personally, I like it loud, but only if the PA sounds good. I do not like bad sounding PAs loud or not. I used to think I didn't like loud drummers, or loud guitar players. Turned out I don't mind good drummers that play loud.

Its not so much the volume as it is bad sound. Combine cheap gear with an inexperienced sound person, and you get trash.

A PA can start sounding really bad, to the point of hurting your ears, and it could very well be a really cheap PA and a knuckelhead sound guy.

Excellent point. You can be loud and not fatiguing.