Full PAs and Small Bars

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

OP here,

Seems like the consensus is what I thought it would be.

A full pa run by an experienced sound man is not going to make a band sound good, however imo it will give them better control over their sound and volume.

Blue

But even with a full pa, if there is amplification on stage that leaves the opportunity for the musician to screw things up. That situation annoys me.

The problem is you shouldn't treat each musician equally, meaning you shouldn't make all guitarists go direct only because one guitarist was a jackhole.

After many years of gigging most musicians I know have figured out a few things. One of the main things in a small club situation is gear size. How many times have many of us heard "Wow, that rig sure looks loud" from management?


So I found a tiny rig that gets as loud as any stack I've had in years and until I pull a bass out most people are wondering where the bassist is setting up.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

The poatrons weren't reall paying attention to him. It's not the first time any of them had taken a music wallpaper type gig.

I hate those kind of gigs and I hope my band never takes one.

We have a place down in the 3rd ward, The Milwaukee Ale House. Nice place on the river. Its huge and it has a larger stage. The place is always packed.

Thing is, they have bands but its not really a music venue. Its packed but that crowd is not there to see a band.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

But even with a full pa, if there is amplification on stage that leaves the opportunity for the musician to screw things up. That situation annoys me.

The problem is you shouldn't treat each musician equally, meaning you shouldn't make all guitarists go direct only because one guitarist was a jackhole.

After many years of gigging most musicians I know have figured out a few things. One of the main things in a small club situation is gear size. How many times have many of us heard "Wow, that rig sure looks loud" from management?


So I found a tiny rig that gets as loud as any stack I've had in years and until I pull a bass out most people are wondering where the bassist is setting up.

I have a small GK Neo 1 15 that I thought I would use for small clubs. Thing is the tone was completely different from my 1001rb with GK RBX cabs. Can't use the combo.

Blue

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

I have a small GK Neo 1 15 that I thought I would use for small clubs. Thing is the tone was completely different from my 1001rb with GK RBX cabs. Can't use the combo.

Blue

That's why I settled in on what I use. I get my sound regardless of venue. And the most the FOH can do is screw up my sound out front, which I have no real control over with a pa anyway.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

I hate those kind of gigs and I hope my band never takes one.

We have a place down in the 3rd ward, The Milwaukee Ale House. Nice place on the river. Its huge and it has a larger stage. The place is always packed.

Thing is, they have bands but its not really a music venue. Its packed but that crowd is not there to see a band.

Blue

Really? Why?

I'm serious... is it a need to be acknowledged or appreciated or what?

Here's what I've found out over the years... if you do it right, you can get people to pay attention regardless of the setting.

What happened with gig I mentioned was that mainly the keyboard player thought he was entitled to the patrons attention when in fact if we had done something more interesting than their entrees we likely would've had it. Here's a real world example:

I did a houseband trio gig for an open mic. It wasn't a blues open mic but it might as well been. All night long I-IV-V with the occasional slightly variation. At the end of the night the three us did a pianissimo version of Spain. The room fell quiet because, while we were burning it up, we were barely audible. They loved it... control, finesse, wondering what was coming next... we gave them a reason to pay attention.

And the restaurant gig paid $150 for two hours of early evening work. Hate that too? Cool.

[DWBass]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Really? Why?

I'm serious... is it a need to be acknowledged or appreciated or what?

Here's what I've found out over the years... if you do it right, you can get people to pay attention regardless of the setting.

What happened with gig I mentioned was that mainly the keyboard player thought he was entitled to the patrons attention when in fact if we had done something more interesting than their entrees we likely would've had it. Here's a real world example:

I did a houseband trio gig for an open mic. It wasn't a blues open mic but it might as well been. All night long I-IV-V with the occasional slightly variation. At the end of the night the three us did a pianissimo version of Spain. The room fell quiet because, while we were burning it up, we were barely audible. They loved it... control, finesse, wondering what was coming next... we gave them a reason to pay attention.

And the restaurant gig paid $150 for two hours of early evening work. Hate that too? Cool.

+1

There's no need to be loud to be heard. Trust me, they're listening even if they are having a conversation. They may be talking about the band and how good they are while not being so loud!

[will33]

Not much of a fan of wallpaper gigs here either...it's because of the "fun factor", or rather lack of it. Did one this past Saturday anyway, office Christmas party in a small, very dead sounding banquet room. Carpet, table cloths, drapes and full of people. Carried the whole gig with a 112 and my 400rb's volume knob never reaching the 1/2 way mark, vocals and acoustic only in the PA. I came prepared with the whole system. After seeing what I was getting into, could've just brought 1/2 of it. No big deal there, paid decent and got all the complimentary beer and prime rib we wanted. Wasn't quite as lame as I thought it'd be, but nowhere near as fun as playing to a lively bar room full of people who came there specifically to drink, dance and party with a live band.


As far as the big PA in small clubs thing, I carry and run my own, mix from stage. I bring what's necessary to do the job and sound good. Sometimes that means everybody's in it, sometimes it means some of us are in it, sometimes it means just vocals, acoustic and mic bleed filling out the rest. We are all musicians who appreciate a good overall group sound, no "me and these other guys" attitudes, blaring guitar gymnastics or any of that other stuff. It works, and works well. I see no point in bringing a huge, full-on system to a small place in an effort to control, or compensate for, a lack of musicianship. Why not fix the root of the problem.....the less-than-professional musicians?

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Really? Why?

I'm serious... is it a need to be acknowledged or appreciated or what?

Here's what I've found out over the years... if you do it right, you can get people to pay attention regardless of the setting.

Hi Brad,

I think I can explain.

The key phrase "if you do it right" has to be expanded. Maybe we could say, " do it right, at the right venue, at the right time, to the right crowd.

Here's my example ;

At the Milwaukee Ale House I referenced, I saw a Led Zeppelin tribute band that was second to none. The crowd was primarily women, very attractive women all under 25 years old and guys just about the same age. The band was ignored.

Now did the band do it right. I don't know. I would say no. They didn't consider the age of the crowd. I don't even know many 40 year olds that are real cool with Zep.

Blue

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Hi Brad,

I think I can explain.

The key phrase "if you do it right" has to be expanded. Maybe we could say, " do it right, at the right venue, at the right time, to the right crowd.

Here's my example ;

At the Milwaukee Ale House I referenced, I saw a Led Zeppelin tribute band that was second to none. The crowd was primarily women, very attractive women all under 25 years old and guys just about the same age. The band was ignored.

Now did the band do it right. I don't know. I would say no. They didn't consider the age of the crowd. I don't even know many 40 year olds that are real cool with Zep.

Blue

If it really needs to be parsed to that degree, that's a fundamental problem, blue.

Yes, if I book my KISS tribute band at a Whole Foods opening, I should at least have a clue as to what I'm getting into.

Whatever the gig is, play the gig... not the ideal. Clueless bands/musicians often don't do this. OTOH when Danger Kitty did that bat mitzvah they knew enough to lay down an extra sheet of plywood for their backyard show. Because they're pros.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

If it really needs to be parsed to that degree, that's a fundamental problem, blue.

Brad, I think in some instances it does.

If the band knows their demogrog is not 22 year old attractive females and no matter how good they are it's not going to resonate with them.

You have to give some thought as to why your doing the show. Especially if it's not a venue that people come to for live music.

Interesting, I just saw Mick Jagger do the Top Ten Count Down on Letterman. That's a big deal to me. I'm his biggest fan.

Right after Mick leaves Dave brings out a 27 year old starlet from Les Miserables. Dave asked her if she met him and if it was exciting. She didn't have a clue about Mick or what he stands for. She said, " The Stones, I don't know much about them"

I think if your playing harder rock ( not classic rock) from the 60s and 70s the younger crowds under 25 will not be your sweet spot.

For me, at 59, Mick was great, she was corny and a poor guest.

Blue

[Brad Johnson]

You are right.

[jive1]

I don't mind wallpaper gigs. If you're with some good players, you can just go off and have fun without having to worry about filling a dance floor. I've had some of my best jams in these settings, and usually there's someone who will really appreciate it. Either way, I get paid to entertain myself.

IME, for full PA and small bars, it really depends on the band and the amount of stage volume. A full PA can't make a loud band quieter. The louder the stage is, the harder it is to mix properly the FOH. Ironically, the bands that can work their volume to be able to work a full PA in a small room can also get a good sound with only vocals going through the PA as well. It's really more about the players than they toys they are playing with. As they say, garbage in, garbage out...........

[Frankjohnson]

Originally Posted by jive1

I don't mind wallpaper gigs. If you're with some good players, you can just go off and have fun without having to worry about filling a dance floor. I've had some of my best jams in these settings, and usually there's someone who will really appreciate it. Either way, I get paid to entertain myself.

IME, for full PA and small bars, it really depends on the band and the amount of stage volume. A full PA can't make a loud band quieter. The louder the stage is, the harder it is to mix properly the FOH. Ironically, the bands that can work their volume to be able to work a full PA in a small room can also get a good sound with only vocals going through the PA as well. It's really more about the players than they toys they are playing with. As they say, garbage in, garbage out...........

pretty much sums up how I feel on that too -
if we use the PA to mic guitars etc. they are pretty low, but not anemic on stage. Easier with 15-30 watt amps than bigger ones. still can get too loud so you still have to watch it. We mostly want to be able to hear each other - so they are mic's for monitors - or we point guitar amps in from the outside. less goes DIRECTLY at the crowd. it is supported through the PA. Same with Bass and kick. I use the tiny schroeder 12 mini a lot, or avatar sb112. We add the sub if needed/able and use JBL JRX112s for tops in many and JRX115s for the rest. monitors and its done. They have a pretty fair amount of volume for most rooms.

Big rooms - if it is more than what we have - we hire sound. Honestly though - we haven't been asked to turn UP for a LONG time

[almightycrunch]

We run a full PA at all of our gigs as well. Mackie 1232 tops on Mackie 1801 subs. We are a full, hard rock band. What it boils down to for us, is that we seek to provide a "full" PA sound and experience. Are we loud? well, yes we can be, but it has become too commonplace for us to go out and see these bands trying to play rock music with speaker on a stick ********. Most places have become accustomed to speaker on a stick, but in the rock realm, it just doesnt work well IMHO. If you are playing at a place where you bring in a tiny PA due to volume restrictions, and THEN you are continually badgered to turn down because you are to loud, then finally told to stop playing altogether and will never play there again, you are playing in the wrong place, and the venue doesnt really want a band, they want background music or karoake. **** that.

[Brad Johnson]

Or you're just the wrong band. Smart professional musicians can play anywhere.

[almightycrunch]

Well, we're a rock band, not a lounge act, therefore we dont play in lounge act venues. Its all about knowing your place. If you are a Green Day tribute band, you dont go booking yourselves into a coffee house and use a Bose L1 stick.

[almightycrunch]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Smart professional musicians can play anywhere.

can play anywhere "they want to" is a better way to say it.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by almightycrunch

If you are a Green Day tribute band, you dont go booking yourselves into a coffee house and use a Bose L1 stick.

Why not?

Nirvana, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Joe Satriani, Queensryche, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, Kiss, Alice In Chains, Queens of the Stone Age, and a whole host of others have done 'unplugged' shows.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by almightycrunch

can play anywhere "they want to" is a better way to say it.

+1

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by almightycrunch

can play anywhere "they want to" is a better way to say it.

I said "smart" for a reason. Maybe I should have said mature professionals. People who understand the business. Jong just stated the obvious on locations.