Full PAs and Small Bars

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by jive1

Why not?

Nirvana, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Joe Satriani, Queensryche, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, Kiss, Alice In Chains, Queens of the Stone Age, and a whole host of others have done 'unplugged' shows.

Exactly. Those lounge acts had more than one gear. It's the difference between being rounded musicians and two-dimensional IMO.

Look, I get it, some people aren't happy unless they're cranking at triple digit dbs. I can do both.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by jive1

I don't mind wallpaper gigs. If you're with some good players, you can just go off and have fun without having to worry about filling a dance floor. I've had some of my best jams in these settings, and usually there's someone who will really appreciate it. Either way, I get paid to entertain myself.

IME, for full PA and small bars, it really depends on the band and the amount of stage volume. A full PA can't make a loud band quieter. The louder the stage is, the harder it is to mix properly the FOH. Ironically, the bands that can work their volume to be able to work a full PA in a small room can also get a good sound with only vocals going through the PA as well. It's really more about the players than they toys they are playing with. As they say, garbage in, garbage out...........

Agreed... that's what I've been saying.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Brad, I think in some instances it does.

If the band knows their demogrog is not 22 year old attractive females and no matter how good they are it's not going to resonate with them.

You have to give some thought as to why your doing the show. Especially if it's not a venue that people come to for live music.

Interesting, I just saw Mick Jagger do the Top Ten Count Down on Letterman. That's a big deal to me. I'm his biggest fan.

Right after Mick leaves Dave brings out a 27 year old starlet from Les Miserables. Dave asked her if she met him and if it was exciting. She didn't have a clue about Mick or what he stands for. She said, " The Stones, I don't know much about them"

I think if your playing harder rock ( not classic rock) from the 60s and 70s the younger crowds under 25 will not be your sweet spot.

For me, at 59, Mick was great, she was corny and a poor guest.

Blue

What hard rock from that period isn't also classic?

[jive1]

I remember something that an old soundman told me a long time ago when I was young, "You always bring your sound with you".

What he meant is that, whatever it takes to get "your sound", you should bring. You shouldn't depend on the soundman, venue, bandmates, etc to get you your sound. If it's a special amp, bring the amp. If it's a full PA with everything mic'd, bring that. If all you need are two speakers on a pole with a single mic, bring that.

But, after doing this for a while, and the range of gigs that are actually out there, people will over time figure out what works for them for the types of gigs they do. I've known guys who got out of the business because of the hassle of having to lug a PA. I've also known guys, including myself who figure out ways to work with a little less to make it more worthwhile.

I prefer to run everything through the PA with all the works. But, if I have to set it up all by myself and there isn't enough time before the gig to do it, I'll make do with less. If my car is particularly crowded that day, I might skip bringing a sub or 2. If one of the mics on the guitar amp fails, I'll figure out how to make do.

Like the soundman said, I bring my sound with me. And over the years I have worked to make sure the main component of my sound is me.

[F-Clef-Jef]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Here's my example ;

At the Milwaukee Ale House I referenced, I saw a Led Zeppelin tribute band that was second to none. The crowd was primarily women, very attractive women all under 25 years old and guys just about the same age. The band was ignored.

Now did the band do it right. I don't know. I would say no. They didn't consider the age of the crowd. I don't even know many 40 year olds that are real cool with Zep.

Blue

I'm wondering what else a Led Zep Tribute band is going to play?

[JoeVictim]

Originally Posted by Phalex

The owner of a bar around here is all uptight about volume. He continues to hire rock & roll bands, but he's real worried about things getting too loud.

I've played that place with three different drummers and each one has said that the owner starts in on them about volume when they carry the first drum in. I guess they set up the riser too loud or something?

We hired a pro sound guy for a gig there once when our regular guy couldn't make it. This guy runs outdoor festivals and arenas and stuff.

He showed up with his "Small System". The speaker stacks must have been 7' tall. It was huge! Jimmy the owner started in on him about how you can't use that huge PA in his bar because it will be too loud.

The sound guy told him it was the smallest PA he had. And the owner was just freaking out. The sound guy took the time to explain that his PA came complete with a feature called a "Volume knob" and assured him that he knew how to use it.

The gig went fine, but I really freakin hate that bar!

Some bars want a rock band, others think they want one, but really want a jukebox...

[almightycrunch]

Originally Posted by JoeVictim

Some bars want a rock band, others think they want one, but really want a jukebox...

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Phantasm]

I spent a lot of money a few years ago buying the best sounding lightweight PA system that I could put together. The tops were single-15" speakers and weighed 39lbs. each. You could one hand them from the trailer to the room! The subs were single 18" subs that weighed 59lbs.

We played a lot of gigs of all sizes with a rock band, and we never had any problems "being loud enough." We got lots of compliments on how we approached this.

So fast forward, the band breaks up but I've still got this PA. Bands start asking if I've still got my PA and if I'd like to run sound for their gigs. Sure, no problem. Once we get into the details the inevitable question about "what kind of mains do you have" comes up. As soon as it comes up that I don't have two dual-18 subs and two dual-15" tops with (insert ungodly number of watts here) of amps, they cancel.

Most bands don't want what's appropriate or practical - they want the image. The sad thing is I could have bought Behringer mains and booked gigs as long as they were dual 18" subs and dual 15" tops with overblown power ratings.

Oh, and 2 monitors per person in the band... with separate mixes for everybody that move to wherever they choose to stand...

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by jive1

I remember something that an old soundman told me a long time ago when I was young, "You always bring your sound with you".

What he meant is that, whatever it takes to get "your sound", you should bring. You shouldn't depend on the soundman, venue, bandmates, etc to get you your sound. If it's a special amp, bring the amp. If it's a full PA with everything mic'd, bring that. If all you need are two speakers on a pole with a single mic, bring that.

But, after doing this for a while, and the range of gigs that are actually out there, people will over time figure out what works for them for the types of gigs they do. I've known guys who got out of the business because of the hassle of having to lug a PA. I've also known guys, including myself who figure out ways to work with a little less to make it more worthwhile.

I prefer to run everything through the PA with all the works. But, if I have to set it up all by myself and there isn't enough time before the gig to do it, I'll make do with less. If my car is particularly crowded that day, I might skip bringing a sub or 2. If one of the mics on the guitar amp fails, I'll figure out how to make do.

Like the soundman said, I bring my sound with me. And over the years I have worked to make sure the main component of my sound is me.

Done and done.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I spent a lot of money a few years ago buying the best sounding lightweight PA system that I could put together. The tops were single-15" speakers and weighed 39lbs. each. You could one hand them from the trailer to the room! The subs were single 18" subs that weighed 59lbs.

We played a lot of gigs of all sizes with a rock band, and we never had any problems "being loud enough." We got lots of compliments on how we approached this.

So fast forward, the band breaks up but I've still got this PA. Bands start asking if I've still got my PA and if I'd like to run sound for their gigs. Sure, no problem. Once we get into the details the inevitable question about "what kind of mains do you have" comes up. As soon as it comes up that I don't have two dual-18 subs and two dual-15" tops with (insert ungodly number of watts here) of amps, they cancel.

Most bands don't want what's appropriate or practical - they want the image. The sad thing is I could have bought Behringer mains and booked gigs as long as they were dual 18" subs and dual 15" tops with overblown power ratings.

Oh, and 2 monitors per person in the band... with separate mixes for everybody that move to wherever they choose to stand...

As usual, it takes all kinds.

I used to do a weekly gig with a four piece band and a powered mixer for around three mics, couple of smallish mains, no subs. We played to match up with the vocals. Club sat around 250 and people loved the sound.

[johng999]

My band plays on average 3 nights per week at all kinds of venues. For us, time is money, and we size the PA for the gig. We all know how to control our volume to fit the situation. For large venues we have a large PA and mike everything through it. For small gigs, usually powered 15's on a pole. Sometimes with one sub to accent the bass drum. We are always complemented on the sound, so wouldn't change a thing. All of us have worked in this business a long time, and are in to minimizing the gear that we bring to a show, including our amps. Both the guitar player and I have several amps that we fit to the venue. In that way we can get our sound without killing everyone with volume.

[lowfreq33]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I spent a lot of money a few years ago buying the best sounding lightweight PA system that I could put together. The tops were single-15" speakers and weighed 39lbs. each. You could one hand them from the trailer to the room! The subs were single 18" subs that weighed 59lbs.

We played a lot of gigs of all sizes with a rock band, and we never had any problems "being loud enough." We got lots of compliments on how we approached this.

So fast forward, the band breaks up but I've still got this PA. Bands start asking if I've still got my PA and if I'd like to run sound for their gigs. Sure, no problem. Once we get into the details the inevitable question about "what kind of mains do you have" comes up. As soon as it comes up that I don't have two dual-18 subs and two dual-15" tops with (insert ungodly number of watts here) of amps, they cancel.

Most bands don't want what's appropriate or practical - they want the image. The sad thing is I could have bought Behringer mains and booked gigs as long as they were dual 18" subs and dual 15" tops with overblown power ratings.

Oh, and 2 monitors per person in the band... with separate mixes for everybody that move to wherever they choose to stand...

Some people listen with their eyes. We run a fairly small system, and we've never had a problem being loud enough. The last band I toured with had two dual 15 mains and four 18 subs, a huge amp rack that was a nightmare if there were any stairs or steps, and we were constantly told to turn down. On one occasion we got a warning before we even played a note. So when I spec'ed out the system for my new band I decided to keep it minimal. We get a great sound and it's less to move and set up, takes up less room in the trailer, and fits more easily in smaller clubs.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Some people listen with their eyes. We run a fairly small system, and we've never had a problem being loud enough. The last band I toured with had two dual 15 mains and four 18 subs, a huge amp rack that was a nightmare if there were any stairs or steps, and we were constantly told to turn down. On one occasion we got a warning before we even played a note. So when I spec'ed out the system for my new band I decided to keep it minimal. We get a great sound and it's less to move and set up, takes up less room in the trailer, and fits more easily in smaller clubs.

Smart move... as we both know from experience, it's entirely possibly to "look" too loud.

[Medford Bassman]

We have or of PA gear but we set up according to the room. Outdoors, we haul some big speakers and multiple subs. Most weddings it Mackie srm450s and two subs which provides plenty of sound for our four piece.
Jan 5 th were playing a place where we bring very small amp and use a. iCal pa only.

IME, most bands want to overpower a room and that's where you can get in trouble with club owners. At weddings, no faster way to kill the vibe than to at nuclear loud.