Getting a "good tone" out of FOH

[The Diaper Geni]

I'm new to running sound and, though not very pleased about doing it, thought I'd make the most of it by figuring out how to get "my tone/good tone" out of the FOH.

Here's the deal: I run the FOH from the stage. (Yes, that sucks but it's unavoidable.) I have been, IMO, getting accurate representations of the players' backline through the FOH with little effort. EXCEPT the bass. I get good bass tone out of my rig (BFM Jack 15) or the FOH. But not when using the FOH and Jack at the same time.

Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

[MrDOS]

Hard to tell without much more detail. Are you using a direct box? What amp head are you using? What is your PA? What is the room size/shape/materials?

My first guess is that stage volume needs to be lowered, but that's just a guess.

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by MrDOS

Hard to tell without much more detail. Are you using a direct box? What amp head are you using? What is your PA? What is the room size/shape/materials?

My first guess is that stage volume needs to be lowered, but that's just a guess.

--Direct box to the FOH.

--ART Tube Channel/Crown XLS1500 into a BFM Jack 15

--Two Carvin 1x15/tweet powered tops, two Yamaha 1x18 subs powered by a Crown XLS15000. Also, a Carvin board and a Driverack are on the front end.

--Rooms are varied, from your typical small crappy bar to outdoor "festival" type work.

I'll try lowering the stage volume and see what happens. Thanks!

[WalterBush]

If you're using the board EQ to get more "umph" out of the bass, to push more low frequencies, consider leaving the bass knob where it is, and just turning up the bass guitar overall.

It's the number one reason I've seen that makes basses go from clear and defined to mud. And I have to stop nearly every FOH guy I run into from doing it. All it takes is a couple of tunes, and they're sold though

[Hellbastard]

Are you losing low end when Using both the cab and running FOH? Probably you're out of phase with the P.A subs, which cause a thin sound. Try reversing the polarity on the D.I channel or on the Subs if they have one.

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

If you're using the board EQ to get more "umph" out of the bass, to push more low frequencies, consider leaving the bass knob where it is, and just turning up the bass guitar overall.

Actually, I keep everything pretty much flat on the board.

I do use a "low cut" button that the Carvin board has on the vox and guitars. I notice that the sound cleans up a little with those low cuts engaged.

I leave the bass flat. I have, the last couple of gigs, boosted the bass on the board just a hair around 200hz. IMO, gives the bass a little more roundness and punch at the same time. Though this weekend I'll go back to flat.

[fokof]

A bass can sound very good on it's own and alone on a PA but you won't be able to have a good mix.
Sometimes (in fact , more often than not) , you have to "cut" the sonic space for instrument in a mix.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

--

--Two Carvin 1x15/tweet powered tops,

The 15/horn is the second worst PA top configuration made, only the 2x15 horn is worse.

two Yamaha 1x18 subs

Placed how?

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The 15/horn is the second worst PA top configuration made, only the 2x15 horn is worse.

Placed how?

Yeah, the Carvins are not the best, that's for sure. BUT, they're not the worst either. They sound pretty good for vocals, IMO. They can get a little shrill, and for me, that shrill-ness is hard to tame. It's a moot point, though, because they're paid for!

90% of the time each sub is directly below a Carvin top on either side of the stage. The Carvins sit on top of each Yamaha 1x18 via a pole/pole mount.

Coupla more deets:
--I do tend to roll off below 35-38 hz on the subs via the Driverack.
--I have been crossing the system over at 130 hz, but maybe this is too high?
--The keyboard player insists running the system in stereo so he can utilize the stereo sounds on his board. I have everything, except the keys, running down the middle pan-wise so I don't think that's a problem.

Again, thanks a ton for suggestions!!!






Heh heh heh....I said "pole mount"....heh heh heh

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

Actually, I keep everything pretty much flat on the board.

I do use a "low cut" button that the Carvin board has on the vox and guitars. I notice that the sound cleans up a little with those low cuts engaged.

I leave the bass flat. I have, the last couple of gigs, boosted the bass on the board just a hair around 200hz. IMO, gives the bass a little more roundness and punch at the same time. Though this weekend I'll go back to flat.

Heh, I frequently boost around 250 Hz on the bass, though I do it with onboard controls rather than at the board.

If you're not cranking the "low" EQ knob on a cheaper board to achieve mud, then I'd look at your gain structure and onstage volume, those being the next two culprits. Having a signal that's too low or clipping going into the board (or into the Tube Channel, for that matter) can often make an otherwise good tone sound "small". I know that at least two of the mixing boards I see on a regular basis at church and a regular casino gig sound best with my signal in a certain range, not too soft, not clipping, or else they just sound a little...thin.

Sounds like you're on the right track, though, and may want to consider listening to how the other instruments are covering up your bass rather than changing what you're doing on your own channel. That's what I'd be looking at, anyway, in addition to the above IME guitarist and keyboard low end or significant drum boominess all mask the bass guitar.

[Dantreige]

Try cutting the lows out of your on stage rig or the p.a. (125 and under.) One or the other. I like to cut it from my stage rig. The subs from the p.a fill the void. Having two low frequency sources too close can cause some huge cancelations.

Also, try boosting a little 800 on your board. This seams to be the "money" band for bass clarity. (IMHO)

I'm not an expert. This is what I do and I run the same FOH and nearly the same rig as you (BFM Jack 112(x2)). I get good results. with this.

One other thing to try since you have a driver Rack, is to delay your tops to match your backline. .1 ms for every foot your tops are in front of your backline speakers.

GL

[fokof]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

..... only the 2x15 horn is worse.

Worked with a Renkus Heinz 2X15 + horn a couple of years ago , can't remember the exact model , sound was pretty good.

( ??? )

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

90% of the time each sub is directly below a Carvin top on either side of the stage. The Carvins sit on top of each Yamaha 1x18 via a pole/pole mount.

From what I've read, the subs should be stacked. Here are a few threads on the topic:
Sub stage placement w plots/graphs
Keeping your speakers safe from sub-harmonics

Also, think about using your Jack 15 (or something smaller) as a bass monitor; That is facing you and with the cab tilted, on the floor.

[allexcosta]

Mic the bass amp...

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by Dantreige

Try cutting the lows out of your on stage rig or the p.a. (125 and under.) One or the other. I like to cut it from my stage rig. The subs from the p.a fill the void. Having two low frequency sources too close can cause some huge cancelations.

Also, try boosting a little 800 on your board. This seams to be the "money" band for bass clarity. (IMHO)

I'm not an expert. This is what I do and I run the same FOH and nearly the same rig as you (BFM Jack 112(x2)). I get good results. with this.

One other thing to try since you have a driver Rack, is to delay your tops to match your backline. .1 ms for every foot your tops are in front of your backline speakers.

GL

GL, I almot always use a guitar(d) stand for my Jack 15 so the lows don't muck up the drums mics and the tone hits me square in the head (as opposed to my knees).

I try the 800hz and see what happens today.

And I'll figger out how to delay the signal.

Also, I play with a very heavy left hand-ed keyboard player with, what I call, "accompanying a choir syndrome". IOW, he plays like he's the only instrument accompnying a choir and filling in as many parts as possible allll the time. Don't get me started on dynamics.

[Dantreige]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

GL, I almot always use a guitar(d) stand for my Jack 15 so the lows don't muck up the drums mics and the tone hits me square in the head (as opposed to my knees).

This is a good start but not quite what I was getting at. Low frequencies are omnidirectional, so even if you raise your cab, low frequencies will still get to those mics. More importantly, the lows from your cab WILL interfere with the lows from your subs in most cases. That is why I suggested to cut the lows form your rig or the p.a. In small rooms, I would cut it from the p.a. as your rig should be able to fill the space well. In large rooms, do the opposite and cut them from your rig.

Try this as an experiment....

After you have a good tone from your stage rig, turn it down or off in volume.) Then set up your bass though the p.a., and get a tone you like. (I'll assume that you are using some form of D.I> box.) Stand out front of the p.a. and play. Have a band member turn your rig back up to gig volume. You will likey hear the bass get mushy less defined.

Now try cuting the lows (125 and under) out of your stage rig or the p.a. and figure out which you like better.

I'm sure you will hear the difference.

As to your other problem with the key player, you have to talk that though with him/her and get that straightened out. If they can't be resaonable, you only choice may be to fire them or break their left arm. In effect what they are doing is adding yet another low frequency source on stage that can be interfering with the subs and YOU!

That's your space! Get them out of it.

Good luck.

[JustDavid]

Sidebarring;

Catching 2 problems with Keys; 'need' for stereo PA in a Live Sound situation & heavy left hand.

You have a good workaround for their 'need' for stereo (other than the added logistical hassle) by having the rest of the band mono & let him have their way. If they are only through the PA you can EQ off their heavy left hand.

But I feel problems are best solved at the source. I'd say it's time for a band talk with Keys; to remind them that they are in a band & not a solo situation, but if a solo situation IS their preference . . .

[bluesdogblues]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

I'm new to running sound and, though not very pleased about doing it, thought I'd make the most of it by figuring out how to get "my tone/good tone" out of the FOH.

Here's the deal: I run the FOH from the stage. (Yes, that sucks but it's unavoidable.) I have been, IMO, getting accurate representations of the players' backline through the FOH with little effort. EXCEPT the bass. I get good bass tone out of my rig (BFM Jack 15) or the FOH. But not when using the FOH and Jack at the same time.

Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

When I ask a great sound engineer friend about question like yours, he always say this:

"Start with a good player, wish that he/she performs good, has a good bass then I've got to have good cables, good DIs, make sure that the stage level and balance and monitor mix for the player are good so he can performs good, then good level, good compressor, good balance of it with other instruments and vocals, good mixer where I can EQ out problematic frequencies with good result, good amplifier & speakers system with good placement of them to deliver them to the audience...
And tone?....tone is what comes from the player hands..."

That's what he always said

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by Dantreige

As to your other problem with the key player, you have to talk that though with him/her and get that straightened out. If they can't be resaonable, you only choice may be to fire them or break their left arm.

Jesus, man! that's a little extreme, breaking their left arm!

Really, just breaking a finger or two on their left hand ought to be sufficient.

Personally, I think a major potential source of problems with a subwoofer is the subwoofer level. Crossover point isn't really important unless the speakers you're using on top don't overlap with the sub response. Crossing over anywhere in the overlap is going to work reasonably well. What happens if the level of the sub is up 3dB? 6dB? Most subs are going to be crossed over somewhere in the meat of the bass freqs, where the overtones are plentiful, where "tone" is defined. If the level of the sub is off, you have boost or cut by that amount right in the middle of bassworld, with a sharp cutoff,. Think that's going to affect the bass tone? Instead of a smooth flat response, you have one side of bassland at 50 feet, and the other side of bassland at sea level. If you don't have a spectrum analyzer and pink noise to do it right, I'd recommend playing some bass centric music with lots of mids, something you know what the bass tone is supposed to sound like, and play that flat through the system. Adjust the sub level and see how the bass tone changes. Put the level where it sounds the way that bass tone should.

No reason to suspect you should know where the level is, compared to the mains, the subs use different amps with different amounts of gain, gain, the speakers are different efficiencies, there's no guidance as to relative levels for amps on tops vs subs.

Randy

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by bluesdogblues

"And tone?....tone is what comes from the player hands..."

That's what he always said

IMO, I am getting good tone our of either my backline or the PA. Just not together.

Keyboard player isn't going anywhere and I don't see him changing his "technique" in the future.

Today, we were outside and I tried, for the heck of it, cutting a little 250hz from the kick and keys and adding just a little 250hz on the bass. All done from the board. Seemed to help. (Actually, the kick seemed to sound quite good, also. Dunno?)

Anybody have any suggestions for a crossover frequency? Again, the subs are Yammy 1x18'sand the tops are the powered plastic Carvin tops (an older version of the PM15A).