getting 'my sound' at gigs

[Changles]

I just got a new cabinet (Hartke HyDrive 115) and am really loving the sound I'm getting out of it. It is THE sound I've been chasing since I started.

So, I want the great sound I'm getting out of my cab at practice at gigs as well, rather than the usual pre-eq DI nonsense approach that most soundmen adopt which to my ears makes the bass sound flat and dull.

So, is this a job for a mic? Sounds like it to me. But I am a noob when it comes to mics, wouldn't know where to start. The Hartke goes real low and real high, so I'd want a mic that can truly capture all the tonal range that cab gives me.

Or maybe there's some other method?

How do you guys out there go about getting the sound of your cabinet, your sound, to the audience?

[two fingers]

A mic could do it, but a lot of sound men (including me) would fight you on it. "Your sound" is great to YOU, but it may not sit well in a band mix at all. It took me years of playing bass, and a couple of years of running sound to figure that out. A friend of mine owns a small sound company (two PA's....one big enough for outdoor festivals and the other able to handle up to large club dates). I've been working for him when he needs extra hands. I've learned a TON about stacking frequencies. If "your sound" is in the same frequency area as ....say....the kick drum, or floor tom(s), suddenly things get muddy. You have to let go and trust the sound guy. He has nothing to gain by making you sound bad. He keeps working if your band sounds great. Sorry to be the one to hit you with this, but absolutely NOBODY in the room cares about "your sound" while you are playing a show. All they care about is being entertained. YOU worry about that and let the guy behind the board handle everything else. Live music is a TEAM sport. Cold? Yes. But true none the less. Just trying to save you a few arguements down the road. If a bassist wanted me to mic a 15" speaker (which would probably be total MUD through a good strong PA) , I would tell him he has two choices. Stick his chord in this DI, or go run sound.

[wetzelman1]

having your sound is defenitely key, but like the above person said, a live situation is different. You obviously want your sound in your music but it can only go so far in a room with acoustics and mixes that you have no control over. For example, in my tiny practice space I play at almost twice the volume as I do at venues. "Your" tone is really more important on recordings than live. Live bass is a feeling instrument more than a tonal instrument imho.

As far as answering your question, do whatever the sound guys suggests, if they will mic bass with a good mic, then you'll get your cab sound, but if they don't have a good mic, run di. They know what will sound best given the equipment they have on hand.

[JackANSI]

I'd track down JimmyM . He uses a mic and, from how hard he fights for his opinion, has great success. I can't remember the mic he said he uses, maybe a Heil PR40?

Just don't forget that chances are the sound guy does know something about how its going to work in the PA and the room. If its going to cause a headache, remember you and your sound aren't the only thing going on unless its a solo gig. JimmyM has a pretty solid reason for wanting a mic, not many people actually do though.

Plus the fact your HyDrive has a horn will make mic'ing and getting that tone you hear a bit harder.

[two fingers]

I'm going to bump for you and add one thing. If YOU get a nice mic, and ask the sound guy if he has extra channels, maybe you could blend them. Just be cool when you ask. Best of luck to you!

[lorenk]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I'm going to bump for you and add one thing. If YOU get a nice mic, and ask the sound guy if he has extra channels, maybe you could blend them. Just be cool when you ask. Best of luck to you!

As some one who did sound for my college (and we got some big acts there) we usually just tossed a mic up and then cut lows on its channel if needed. We (the sound crew) always tried to match the live sound to the bands recorded sound within reason. We used a Shure SM57, though you can use the Shure mic for kick drums...but we always had better results with the 57. I actually have a 57 for personal use (with a mini boom stand) and while I haven't needed to use it yet (upgraded my rig and downgraded the venues I'm playin' at now ) I always have it in my car.

I would be suprised if the sound crew was really going to shut you down if you just ask nice and respectfully if you can mic your cab...most people I worked with just wanted to have everything go smoothly with the band.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by JackANSI

I'd track down JimmyM . He uses a mic and, from how hard he fights for his opinion, has great success. I can't remember the mic he said he uses, maybe a Heil PR40?

From what I could read from his posts (not sure), Jimmy uses a B-15 , and that amp doesn't reproduce nothing under 100hz. (I know , I've got one)

A mike is the only way to have your bass amp sounds but it has so much disadvantages over a DI;
-lower frequency is gonna be a lot more muddy than the DI (or absent)
-On bass cabinet , the "coupling" effect happens at a certain distance , so putting the mic close to the cone , you completely loose that effect (think SVT 8/10 for example)
-Your mic is gonna pick up the ambiant noise. Drums , gtr amps , wedge etc.... even with an hypercardioïd , 'cause the noise all around you "rebounds" on surfaces to be picked up by microphones.
That is true for all the mics on stage.

[addylewis]

One of my amps NEEDS a D.I. box whenever I do a gig (no in-built DI basically...) - so what I generally do is D.I. it through the preamp - is HAS got an option of pre/post EQ so I ALWAYS use "post"...any major probs and I switch it or re-eq - other than that its the soundguy's job to sort it out! (Half the time they don't appear to notice, so if they re-eq at their end and I don't know about it or hear any real difference I'm happy...)

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by lorenk

As some one who did sound for my college (and we got some big acts there) we usually just tossed a mic up and then cut lows on its channel if needed. We (the sound crew) always tried to match the live sound to the bands recorded sound within reason. We used a Shure SM57, though you can use the Shure mic for kick drums...but we always had better results with the 57. I actually have a 57 for personal use (with a mini boom stand) and while I haven't needed to use it yet (upgraded my rig and downgraded the venues I'm playin' at now ) I always have it in my car.

I would be suprised if the sound crew was really going to shut you down if you just ask nice and respectfully if you can mic your cab...most people I worked with just wanted to have everything go smoothly with the band.

I probably over stated my position (and I tend to do that). I would never "shut down" a sound job over a bass rig mic. So your point there is well taken. But I would also argue that a SM57 on a bass speaker is something that I would NEVER do. If I did get into putting a mic on a bass rig, it would AT LEAST be one suited to the frequencies of a bass. Let me also add that the band is NOT the only group there with a reputation to uphold. So I WOULD push my point a little bit if the band were trying to do something that would sound like crap out front (something like....I don't know....putting a mic in front of a 15" speaker as the ONLY channel off of the bass). A recording engineer I used to work with stated it perfectly...."You can't polish a turd. No matter how much you polish it, it's still a turd." But, again, you are right. Eventually, if ego prevailed, I would slap a mic on it and let it ride, and not lose the job.

[von buck]

I never really get the "my sound" thing in a live situation. Recording, I get it, but live?
The only reason to worry about your sound is for yourself, not the audience. If your sound helps you play what you need to hear, that's one thing. But like two fingers said, it's a team effort and the audience only cares about how the band sounds, not just the bass player.
Why guitarists need to get thier sound is a whole different argument, best suited for a guitar forum.

Andy

[lorenk]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I probably over stated my position (and I tend to do that). I would never "shut down" a sound job over a bass rig mic. So your point there is well taken. But I would also argue that a SM57 on a bass speaker is something that I would NEVER do. If I did get into putting a mic on a bass rig, it would AT LEAST be one suited to the frequencies of a bass. Let me also add that the band is NOT the only group there with a reputation to uphold. So I WOULD push my point a little bit if the band were trying to do something that would sound like crap out front (something like....I don't know....putting a mic in front of a 15" speaker as the ONLY channel off of the bass). A recording engineer I used to work with stated it perfectly...."You can't polish a turd. No matter how much you polish it, it's still a turd." But, again, you are right. Eventually, if ego prevailed, I would slap a mic on it and let it ride, and not lose the job.

Psh psh! I was the one that over stated! The comment about being shut down wasn't directed at you at all, just a general statement.

As for the 57, it is decent for a bass mic, the response is 40hz-15,000hz. And if I am correct (which there's a fairly good chance I'm wrong lol) anything below 40hz is usually "mud" for bass.

[JimmyM]

Well now that I have a VT pedal, I don't mind DI'ing so much, but if you want a mic, don't let these soundman types scare you off it It's really not that difficult or touchy. All of the things they say are true in theory, but I've found the risks to be small in the long run. And while nobody in the audience ever cares whether I DI or run a mic, I care, and that's good enough for me.

I do, indeed, use a Heil PR 40, because it's a killer sounding mic with a very strong low end extension. When I've mic'ed a tweetered cab, the tweeter almost always comes through regardless of placement. And before I got the Heil, I used to use a Shure SM 58, which doesn't have as good a low end extension, but in conjunction with a DI sounds pretty much as good as the Heil by itself. So if you can't afford $325 for the Heil, it's a cheaper solution that's just as effective IMHO.

I don't know if I agree with fokof's assessment of the B-15, though. First, there are several different cabs they used to make with them. And they're ported cabs, and while maybe not quite as strong in the lows as your Hartke, I think they do better than 100 hz. When I do no-PA gigs with it, I generally have to roll off a little bass response in order to get it to sit with the bass drum in a mix and not be muddy, so while I don't know for sure just how low they go, I think they do better than 100 hz. Just my opinion, though...I have no data to back it up. But that's neither here nor there to this discussion.

The best thing to do is experiment around if you have time before a gig, and maybe try recording some samples with a DI and a mic at home to get an idea if you don't. You will, most definitely, run into resistance from some soundmen, so be prepared.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I probably over stated my position (and I tend to do that). I would never "shut down" a sound job over a bass rig mic. So your point there is well taken. But I would also argue that a SM57 on a bass speaker is something that I would NEVER do. If I did get into putting a mic on a bass rig, it would AT LEAST be one suited to the frequencies of a bass. Let me also add that the band is NOT the only group there with a reputation to uphold. So I WOULD push my point a little bit if the band were trying to do something that would sound like crap out front (something like....I don't know....putting a mic in front of a 15" speaker as the ONLY channel off of the bass). A recording engineer I used to work with stated it perfectly...."You can't polish a turd. No matter how much you polish it, it's still a turd." But, again, you are right. Eventually, if ego prevailed, I would slap a mic on it and let it ride, and not lose the job.

I would agree with that somewhat, but who's to say it's ego on the bass player's part? I do it because I just plain think it sounds better with my gear. And if you were to argue that it was ego on my part to want a mic, I would argue that it's lack of respect on the soundman's part to not let me do it. Goes both ways, ya know?

But I'm perfectly willing to let it go if I'm supplied a cab I don't like, or if they convince me it's screwing the mix to do it (hasn't happened yet), or if logistics dictate that it's going to throw a monkey wrench into the proceedings. Ran DI on a gig last Sunday at Hershey Park. Didn't bother me so much because it's a tiny stage with no room for me to stand as it is without adding a mic to trip over.

[Marcus Willett]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

All of the things they say are true in theory....while nobody in the audience ever cares whether I DI or run a mic, I care, and that's good enough for me.

+ a lot
All of the arguments against using a mic and/or getting "your" sound in the house can be applied just as easily to guitar. Especially since a lot of guitarists play chords with all 6 strings and often overlap with the bass range quite a bit, making things muddy. However it's just taken as a given that the guitarist must have his sound in the PA, the amp must be miked, and whatever the soundman has to do to make it work; so be it. That's just part of his job.

Not so with bass; no. If (for example) some distortion or a particular EQ or effects (chorus, for example) is part of your sound, getting a pre-amp DI send will work ONLY if the soundman replicates that at the FOH. Otherwise, it's his idea of what you should sound like.

I know of no other electric instrument where this standard is applied. Even if he has tons of low end on his sound and things get muddy, is a guy playing an organ with a leslie ever told he has to give that up and go with a DI because it will be easier to make it work in the house? Guitar? Any electric instrument at all? No, just electric bass.

Acoustic instruments of course, must be miked so you are by definition getting your sound to begin with.

It's an endlessly fascinating and maddening situation.

EDIT: I am going to preemptively respond to what I know would be one response....synths. They are often plugged into a DI, but it's not a valid comparison because all the internal processing which usually consists of EQ, FX and other parameters (often amp simulation) are done to the sound before it leaves the synth. It's "your" sound when it leaves the synth. If the amp/cab are part of "your" sound, you will not sound like you unless that is factored in.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

EDIT: I am going to preemptively respond to what I know would be one response....synths. They are often plugged into a DI, but it's not a valid comparison because all the internal processing which usually consists of EQ, FX and other parameters (often amp simulation) are done to the sound before it leaves the synth. It's "your" sound when it leaves the synth. If the amp/cab are part of "your" sound, you will not sound like you unless that is factored in.

I think even keyboard players could benefit from running through amps as well. My band's keyboard player uses the argument that all the processing is built into them, too, but I've run synths through amps before, and always dug the sound a lot more than just a DI, especially if it's a digital keyboard, which always sound a little too "cold" for my tastes.

But believe me Marcus, your point is a brilliant one, one I wish more soundmen would take into consideration.

[lorenk]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

But believe me Marcus, your point is a brilliant one, one I wish more soundmen would take into consideration.

Big +1 on that

I never understood the combative nature of some musicians/sound guys about anything/everything they could (and I've definately worked with 'em) - I'm not meaning to point fingers here,because I have yet to experience that on TB.

Worst people I ever worked with was a dance/greek-system show (it was a strange one). They refused to sound check til they got this insane rider filled out (it was different from the one we got). Then when the soundcheck finally started, they refused to actually do anything other then make sure the CD level was good. Ugh.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

I know of no other electric instrument where this standard is applied. Even if he has tons of low end on his sound and things get muddy, is a guy playing an organ with a leslie ever told he has to give that up and go with a DI because it will be easier to make it work in the house? Guitar? Any electric instrument at all? No, just electric bass.

I can name a few other ;
-keyboards (99% all DI)
-Any electronic source instrument(DJ , sampler, V-Drums, CPU; 100% DI )
-Acoustic/classical gtr and bass , IME , they are 80% DI (we're talking "live" here , not studio)
-Violin , it's 75% DI
-And all the other non standard instrument wich , more and more, have pickup. I did an Arabic gig last month and the Oud players all had pickups........

The only time a mic is must over a DI is on very specific applications where the sounds of the amp is required (guitar, rhodes&twin , Leslie , etc..) and you guys.....

IME , 95% of the bass players requested/wanted/were OK with a DI.
Don't get me wrong , if I work with a bass player that needs to be miked , then it's a must.
If you have tons of FX and that SVT 8/10 distortion is part of the band's sound, then it's a no brainer.

The debate is on the word "need".........

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by fokof

The debate is on the word "need".........

No, the debate is on who decides whose needs are more important. And I believe that the performer, as the one who ultimately takes the credit or blame for the band's sound, should get what they want. Contrary to what some soundmen try to tell you, it's no more difficult to get a great sound with a mic than with a DI, and the "difficulties" of using a mic are greatly exaggerated.

BUT...there's a lot of responsibility on the bassist's part to be responsible, IE, informing the soundman that you want a mic well in advance, no drastic tonal or volume changes, try to send an easily mixable signal with a reasonable volume, take advice from the soundman if he can't deal with your signal and says you're going to screw the pooch, etc. And you have to take those responsibilities seriously because if you blow out a speaker on a PA that's not yours, some of those soundmen are pretty big and will kick your ass! And if you're not prepared to be responsible, then you should just let them DI you. Nobody should go out of their way to make things difficult for the soundman, especially on multi-band shows where changeovers have to be quick.

But if a soundman tells me he doesn't want me using a mic just on principle, that's disrespecting the performer IMHO.

[Marcus Willett]

Originally Posted by fokof

I can name a few other ;
-keyboards (99% all DI)
-Any electronic source instrument(DJ , sampler, V-Drums, CPU; 100% DI )
-Acoustic/classical gtr and bass , IME , they are 80% DI (we're talking "live" here , not studio)
-Violin , it's 75% DI

Let's take these one at a time.

1)keys: Invalid argument, already addressed. The signal processing is DONE by the time it reaches the DI.

2) Sampler/V-drums: same thing. If you sampled it, chances are very good you like the sound as is, i.e., it's done. V-Drums: see point 1...signal processing is DONE aready

3)acoustic instruments: sometimes DI, often times mics when live. I guarantee you if either insisted they wanted a mic they would get it. Try that with electric bass. Also, in the studio, 99% mic'ed, not so with bass and the argument about the live virtues of DI is not applicable there.

4) Violin: last I checked, violin was an acoustic instrument. If you're talking an electric violin, you're only helping with with my point...they sound like crap.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

the debate is on who decides whose needs are more important...Contrary to what some soundmen try to tell you, it's no more difficult to get a great sound with a mic than with a DI, and the "difficulties" of using a mic are greatly exaggerated.

Quite true. Getting a good kick drum sound live is tough but no effort is spared to do so. I've seen situations where the guitarist simply had to be in stereo, and other concerns that consumed huge amounts of time to get his sound, and it never seems to be much of a problem...unless you play bass and actually maybe want your rig you spent thousands of dollars and untold hours with molding you sound to at least be a factor in what goes out front. Then you're being difficult.

Just recently I was butting heads with a soundman because I told him I didn't wanna plug my passive bass into his crap $20 DI with 100K input impedance which would load down my pickups. he asked me "What's the big thing you're getting from that amp?" (in this case a TF750). I said "Probably the same thing the guitarist is getting from his."

So I say "Why don't you come up on stage, hear my rig and then you can know what kind of sound I'm going for?"

Reaction? (this is a good one and told me all I needed to know about him)

I don't need to hear that.

Funny thing is a week later when he thought I was using the DI, and I had in fact changed nothing at all, he came up to me after the show and told me "Yeah, man! That did it...great sound last night!"

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Just recently I was butting heads with a soundman because I told him I didn't wanna plug my passive bass into his crap $20 DI with 100K input impedance which would load down my pickups. he asked me "What's the big thing you're getting from that amp?" (in this case a TF750). I said "Probably the same thing the guitarist is getting from his."

So I say "Why don't you come up on stage, hear my rig and then you can know what kind of sound I'm going for?"

Reaction? (this is a good one and told me all I needed to know about him)

I don't need to hear that.

Funny thing is a week later when he thought I was using the DI, and I had in fact changed nothing at all, he came up to me after the show and told me "Yeah, man! That did it...great sound last night!"

Cough (douchebag) cough!

I've never met Marcus but I know people who know him, and he has a stellar reputation among them. I see no reason he shouldn't get what he wants. Anyone have a (wrong) differing opinion?