getting 'my sound' at gigs

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by akaTRENT

Btw Jimmy or mark, I boost mids when i play. With a fair amount of lows, and little highs. Should the sm57 be okay on the 8x10? to replicate that tight mid punch with the the di on my head covering the lows? I read some other threads but dont get what the 40hz cut off on my mic means when i know my cab goes down to 5hz? I play a four string in standard tuning so I am not worried about extremely low pitches. thanks in advance

That must be a magical cab you have there. Since it goes all the way down to 5hz.

[akaTRENT]

Originally Posted by modulusman

That must be a magical cab you have there. Since it goes all the way down to 5hz.

Never was a fan of trolls.


with that said.
I may have this whole frequency thing wrong anyway. and ill be the first to admit that.
So rather than flame me why not simply explain to me what im stating wrong.

At second glance the svt goes from 58hz-5 khz
so how does that pair with the 40 the 57 can handle?

I just want to retain a tidge of lowend using the di while the sm carries the main sound.

[20db pad]

A SM57 mixed with a DI for lows should be just fine on an Ampeg SVT cab - it's been done for decades.

[modulusman]

Yep you got it wrong alright. Your cab has a usable frequency down to 40hz minus 10db. You can call me a troll if you want but at least I sorta have a clue as too what I'm talking about.

[akaTRENT]

Originally Posted by 20db pad

A SM57 mixed with a DI for lows should be just fine on an Ampeg SVT cab - it's been done for decades.

Cool! Any insight how how the frequencies are working together though, in the event i need to explain to a sound guy? I know it sounds good. I just want to know the math behind it so to speak and i know a few people in this post know how the numbers go hand in hand!

thanks!

[akaTRENT]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Yep you got it wrong alright. Your cab has a usable frequency down to 40hz minus 10db. You can call me a troll if you want but at least I sorta have a clue as too what I'm talking about.

See couldnt you just have said that from the beginning?
I even said I am clueless in that area. its a learning process. thats why I asked.

[modulusman]

Sorry, I had to look the specs up. I don't think humans can hear 5hz.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by akaTRENT

See couldnt you just have said that from the beginning?
I even said I am clueless in that area. its a learning process. thats why I asked.

Best not to call guys trolls that have a clue then. They may not know what to tell you right off the bat that you could actually digest and make use of. It's not always easy to write something that requires a book or at least a chapter, and a lot of background science knowledge assumed, and impart it to impatient people who would be best advised to look for said book before getting bent out of shape at a mild typo joke.

It really is frustrating at times to "help" so sometimes we joke instead.

[20db pad]

You could easily say to a soundman that you'd prefer that the upper mids and highs of your sound be handled by the mic, and that you'd like the DI signal to handle the lows.

As for the math and numbers, it's a tough call because a specific number won't work equally well in all rooms - the low end portion will be quite variable, but you could ask for the mic signal to have a boost at 4kHz , 500kHz or 800kz as a start, but you need to know and have experience with what those frequencies bring to the table sonically in terms of a bass tone. This is where some self-education and exploration of the audio spectrum will serve you well.

There's also the point of finding a soundman at a club who will do all this for you, as most bass soundchecks last no more than 10 seconds, with no prior consultation

[akaTRENT]

Originally Posted by 20db pad

You could easily say to a soundman that you'd prefer that the upper mids and highs of your sound be handled by the mic, and that you'd like the DI signal to handle the lows.

As for the math and numbers, it's a tough call because a specific number won't work equally well in all rooms - the low end portion will be quite variable, but you could ask for the mic signal to have a boost at 4kHz , 500kHz or 800kz as a start, but you need to know and have experience with what those frequencies bring to the table sonically in terms of a bass tone. This is where some self-education and exploration of the audio spectrum will serve you well.

There's also the point of finding a soundman at a club who will do all this for you, as most bass soundchecks last no more than 10 seconds, with no prior consultation

Thank you!

[skidrawk]

My sound comes from my hands so fortunately for me I can achieve my goal easily going DI post fx/preamp. I place my combo as close to me (to my side) as possible as to not blast anyone else with my personal monitoring and let the soundguy do his magic.

[JimmyM]

Trent, the reason the DI is used more often than cabs is because there are three kinds of bassists...those who care about having a mic, those who care about having a DI, and those who don't care either way. Those who don't care either way are way more prevalent than those who do, so DI's are almost always used on them. Also, you have to take into consideration that some people have crap cabs and they know it, so they'd rather DI.

[JimmyM]

BTW, did I mention that my birthday's on Tuesday and I told my wife I want a Countryman Type 85?

Won't be running it the usual way, though. If they're going to force me into a DI situation (sometimes logistics force me to suck it up now and then and use a DI, sometimes I just get a crappy amp that I don't want to mic), they're going to have my DI running the way I want it...and that's through a Countryman hooked up as a speaker DI running off an Ampeg. Sounds better than a REDDI if you use a speaker DI on an SVT or B-15. I've experimented with speaker DI on a few gigs here and there with my Red Box, and I really like it, though the Red Box is a little weak for bass. It's more for guitar. The Countryman kills on bass, though. Might even be a little more in your face than a mic'ed cab. We'll see.

So there, that ought to stave off you DI nazis out there! Between the speaker DI and my VT Bass pedal, you're going to get the sound I want you to have regardless of how you try to kill my muse. And if you still try to ruin me, there's always turning up way too loud to go in the PA (except on Bowzer gigs...you got me over a barrel on them ).

[hbarcat]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

I'm always willing to work with a soundman as long as it comes from the perspective that his job is to take my sound and do whatever he has to do to make it work out front. If he needs a few concessions on my part that's fine, but you're the soundman, not my producer. If my rig is part of my sound (and it is) you damn well better at least try to give me a fraction of the leeway you will unhesitatingly give a guitarist.

+11

I insist on going post EQ from my rig because my sound is that important to me. Going pre EQ sounds like poop from the mains and I won't put up with it just because the sound guy is too lazy or too uncaring to take an extra 2 minutes to tweak the EQ on his board to make it sound good. After all, he is supposed to be a professional, and that is his job.

I also run sound for my band when we don't have a FOH setup and I know what needs to be done to my sound to translate it from stage to room. Having said that, I have rarely had a sound guy hesitate to accommodate my request to go post EQ. My experience is they don't give it a second thought - they have no problem taking my sound with the character I want it to have and making it work with the room.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

I insist on going post EQ from my rig because my sound is that important to me. Going pre EQ sounds like poop from the mains and I won't put up with it just because the sound guy is too lazy or too uncaring to take an extra 2 minutes to tweak the EQ on his board to make it sound good. After all, he is supposed to be a professional, and that is his job.

I also run sound for my band when we don't have a FOH setup and I know what needs to be done to my sound to translate it from stage to room. Having said that, I have rarely had a sound guy hesitate to accommodate my request to go post EQ. My experience is they don't give it a second thought - they have no problem taking my sound with the character I want it to have and making it work with the room.

So your enclosure sounds an awful lot like a good PA, has approximately the same frequency response? What is it?

[hbarcat]

Originally Posted by greenboy

So your enclosure sounds an awful lot like a good PA, has approximately the same frequency response? What is it?

It's a TL606 w/EV15L. It doesn't have a lot of low end and it certainly doesn't have the frequency response of a PA. But that's not the sound I want and I don't mic my enclosure.

I only use the cab for monitoring on-stage. My deal is that I've had soundmen give me crap about the little switch on the back of my amp that changes whether or not the DI is pre or post EQ. Most sound guys want pre EQ while I insist on going post EQ because that's the sound I want. And this is no small thing to me - I use a Mesa M2000 because the setting of the (extensive) tone controls defines my bass sound. Set flat is kind of pointless (at least to me) and I want the color and character of the amp to be my bass tone. Rarely, I have to deal with a soundguy who will be a jerk about it when they assume I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm going to give them a signal that's a nightmare to tame. Just the opposite is true, because I've worked that side of the board.

My point is that I'm not a newb with regard to FOH and my post EQ send is already very mix friendly. It doesn't have a lot of content below about 70 Hz, it's slightly boosted at frequencies that complement my pickup/string/playing sound and I've slightly notched frequencies interfering with guitars, vocals, drums etc. Of course it will need to be EQ'ed to work with the mix and the room but that's the soundman's job and if he's even halfway competent he won't have a problem doing it.

Soundmen do have a valid point that they often encounter bassists who want this giant, driving, booming bass sound they hear from their cabinet to translate directly into the room. I sympathize with them and I understand it's THE reason they would much rather deal with a nice clean DI with a flat frequency response.




Edit: I'm about half done with a three way enclosure (Eminence Kappalite15 + 6 + tweet, active crossover) that should have the frequency response of a PA. I have no plans of micing that, either - it would be a nightmare for the soundguy.

[greenboy]

Just asked because in the past a lot of the guys who wanted to send me post-EQ DI (or they had no choice)... well, it became apparent that a lot of their EQ was to compensate for their cabs' sonic peaks or valleys though they thought it was what it took to get "their sound". Sometimes there were a lot of boosts and cuts in their EQ that when that got to the FOH, often needed to be countered just to have some clarity - or in other cases, to not be shrill. Often what their cab was speaking onstage was appeared to be a decent balance from string to string up and down the neck. But in the PA some ranges were all too apparent, and some were diminished in impact or easily masked by other instruments.

So often the limited number of EQ bands on a board channel were not enough to both counter some of the glaring inconsistencies and to fit the mix. Then engineering became more a case of minimizing the damage, rather than taking something good and presenting it in its best light.

[hbarcat]

Understood.

To be honest, I've always been pushy about what I've wanted and in ages past I was the PITA bassist that the soundman had nightmares about. It took me quite a few years to figure out what the sound guy's job really is and how much of a problem it is to have to counteract a bad bass sound.

Eventually, the years of watching and listening to competent sound guys and doing the job myself for other bands got me to the point where "my sound" is pretty close to what the sound guy needs to have coming in to his board so he isn't required to screw with it too much to make it sound good in the room and in the mix.


I would add that "my sound" depends an awful lot on the band I'm playing with. I just finished five years with a 3 piece cover band where there was tons of space available for the bass and part of our band's identity was this edgy, aggressive bass sound. But I just joined a 5 piece cover band with a more traditional approach and "my sound" is going to be a lot different because I won't have the luxury of occupying so much sonic space. Another guitar plus keys means the bass player has to sacrifice - sometimes quite a bit.