Getting rid of the boom.....

[LightGroove]

Hey now,

I play in a praise and worship band for a local church. Our church relocated a few years ago into a much larger building. It just so happens that this new building used to be a warehouse . We're basically playing in a big "tin can" if you will that sits 2000 or so people.

The band consist of an my bass, an acoustic, an electric, classic drums, keys, vocals, and sometime violin.

Anyho the ongoing issue since day one has been the "boom" factor. I've been through quite a few basses in our time there ...some high end...others really cheap in hopes that one will help cut the issue. Nothing yet..

In my ears and through my cab things sound ok..sometimes great to me...Out in the house well....In an effort or cut out the boom I've been asked to cut the lows or leave em flat while the sound guy cranks the upper mids and highs..Well I get this wonderful metallic clanky bass tone with no booty. I've played around with my amp settings, along with my onboard eq settings and we're still battling the issue.

I'm looking for a nice warm defined fingerstyle tone..with defined being the key word.

I play through an SWR head as a preamp and run that into the house.

So my friends I'm curious if there is a happy solution. Or if you've experienced this and found nothing really works.

Is there a good bass suggestion, head suggestion, amp settings, etc...

Blessings and thanks for your time
Michael

[manicbassman]

The building's acoustics need attending to... they need to install reflectors and absorbers to make things sound better. There's nothing YOU can do yourself at all... it will always sound terrible until they get the building fixed.

[billbern]

I find that using basses with the pick ups back near the bridge allow some "warmth" with less "boom". For me that's my Smith BSR5. Also keep the backline volume as low as possible.

Here's a quote from Bill Fitzmaurice
"Except perhaps the most important, which is killing boom. To do so set the Q to moderately high, set the cut to maximum, then sweep the frequency between 80 and 300 Hz until the boom disappears. Having found the vicinity of the boom frequency increase the Q as far as it will go while still killing the boom, adjusting the frequency as you do so to fine tune it."

[AlembicPlayer]

how about using in ears and no backline?
I've worked a lot of country acts that use this approach, no bass amp on stage at all.

[Will On Bass]

I had the same problem at a church I used to play for years ago. And manicbassman is right. We tried everything and nothing worked until they got carpet (they started with a concrete floor) and carpeted the stage(it started out as just plywood) and installed a drop ceiling.

[SteveC]

Not much you can do unless the building gets some fixes. It also helps to "EQ the room" with en EQ and white niose generator.

[LightGroove]

Hey all..thanks for the input..

Well we do use an Aviom in ear system. I like it a lot as we can mix our own monitors but you become very isolated. Its also tough when the sound guys play with eq's and such . I typically play with one in and one out to feel/hear the drummer properly. I don't really use my on stage backline for volume but more for the feel. I will try cutting that back at practice this week.

I also thought about switching to flatwounds to subdue some of the clankiness as they crank those frequencies.

Lastly our church hit a financial crisis earlier in the year (bad money management ) and all funds are frozen. Investing in an acoustical treatment is probably out of the question at this point but hopefully something to look at in the future.

Glad to know its not me...well maybe a little

[JTE]

LigtGroove-

I feel for you. I'm the head of the A/V ministry at my church, and we're in a 100 year-old former high school auditorium. It was made for plays and acoustic orchestral performances. Our musicians are a live drummer, Hammond B-3, and a bassist. The room has a huge bump around 150 Hz, and the echoes are so prevalent that when I'm playing bass through the PA, I can't do any Rocco-ish 16th note things. Hit a quick low note and damp the string, but the room keeps the note ringing.

We know the real solution is acoustic treatment of the room, but like you, it's not a financial option right now. The key is getting rid of as much of that acoustic energy as possible. Instead of keeping the bass flat and boosting the highs and mids, I'd try keeping the highs and mids flat, and cutting the lows. It's gonna sound weak and twangy anyway, but it should help with the boominess in the room. Generally, if you like how your bass sounds in the room when you play by yourself, it's utterly useless when everything is going.

jte

[Fliko]

Originally Posted by JTE

We know the real solution is acoustic treatment of the room, but like you, it's not a financial option right now. The key is getting rid of as much of that acoustic energy as possible. Instead of keeping the bass flat and boosting the highs and mids, I'd try keeping the highs and mids flat, and cutting the lows. It's gonna sound weak and twangy anyway, but it should help with the boominess in the room. Generally, if you like how your bass sounds in the room when you play by yourself, it's utterly useless when everything is going.

jte

True that, it's better to cut frequencies then to add frequencies. (For the most part)

[Joe Smithberger]

Originally Posted by LightGroove

Hey all..thanks for the input..

Well we do use an Aviom in ear system. I like it a lot as we can mix our own monitors but you become very isolated. Its also tough when the sound guys play with eq's and such . I typically play with one in and one out to feel/hear the drummer properly. I don't really use my on stage backline for volume but more for the feel. I will try cutting that back at practice this week.

I also thought about switching to flatwounds to subdue some of the clankiness as they crank those frequencies.

A couple of thoughts:

I play in a large tiled church myself and have found that you have to pick which (single) source the lows are going to come from. If your stage amp is big in the lows, you have to cut them in the house. Those frequencies carry like crazy and tend to interfere with one another if you have more than one source. My solution is to use my amp for the main source since I am placed next to an acoustic drum kit and a 7' Steinway. The house sound has all the lows rolled off. Using a DI with a phase control can help too (Radial JDI and Fishman Pro Platinum for me). Even with this setup. I find that it is much better to EQ out highs and some mid frequencies to get a thicker sound. If you crank the bass knob, it seems things get much worse. I also like using flats. It seems the simpler sound of flats stays more coherent when the room is fighting me.

The in-ears, I'm sure you noticed, give you next to no low end if you don't use both sides and have a good fit to your ears.

[LightGroove]

Yes the in ears can be a major issue. I really when the guys start piddling with the eq's and frequencies start to quash each other. Sounds like a train and a bunch of other non sense.

Thanks again for all the input. I do tend to hang int he low end but do make some runs to the upper frets...ala the B & C # on my E string. It seems that this note really brings the boom.

I don't play a 5 but wondered if I switched up if the overall boominess would change..ala an open B on a 5 string vs. the B on my E string??

Blessings

[On The DL]

I feel you man. I too use in-ears, every day in fact, and travel once a month to play in churches, some with really nice FOH systems and I'm always frustrated with this issue of boom.

I ususally go direct with my Radial Bassbone and have something like a SWR or Ampeg with a 4x10 for backline. I've asked around about this issue and this is the anwer I got from JMJ- someone who knows tone and playing live at different venues.

He said you've -got to, got to- mic a cab and have somone who knows the least bit about bass tone to mix the two signals (no offense, but I find that most church soundmen don't know the difference between bass tone and a train rolling by outside).

Since a bass cab reproduces bass frequencies more evenly (unlike a sub) micing it and mixing with a DI will give you even tone all the way up.

This may not be of interest, but even a bass pod would help some with the cab simulation. It's what I use for now untill I can get our sound department on the same page with bass tone.

[Joe Smithberger]

Micing a cab will also get the front of house more under control. Although I think it has a good deal to do with the rolloff of low frequencies that you get using most common mics like the SM57. I did that for a while, but our stuff gets moved around a lot and the mic would be placed a little different each time.

Another approach is using is a variable high pass filter like the depth control on the Fishman DI. There is a guy on the DB side (Fdeck?) that makes a little box that he sells for $50 that does this also.

[bassninja7]

hmmm i was watching a vid for ampegs ba combos and the guy was talking about that midrange selector, and he said that 4-5 gives you boomy bass...

what he said next, im not sure i believe.....
he said set it to that if the room you are playing sounds boomy....it couneracts it.....

personaly i find it to be a load of crap, but i may be wrong.
any of you ever heard of such a thing?

[51m0n]

Since you are using in ear monitoring, if you can lay right off with the amp output then some generous notch filtering of the worst frequencies in FOH may help without nearly so much problem to overall sound as you may think.

But I do mean notch filtering (smallest Q possible).

Talk to your sound guy about this possibilty, if he has something like a dbx drive rack he should be able ot reserve some filters and set them right down low to do the job for instance.

Its possible to do with a 32 band a side graphic, just less precise.

Of course, nothing beats fixing the room!

[staindbass]

id say the room amplifies around 100-150 hz. so it sounds normal to you, but boomy out front. eq it out. it may sound like a sub onstage, but normal in the audience. true low end does not interfere with other instruments. its underneath them. or get a really long cord, during warmup get the bass to sound how you like it in the audience. johnny a/staind

[LightGroove]

Hey all,

I'll get them to do some playing around our next practice. Unfortunately our real sound guy or who I would call our sound "guru" was killed in a motorcycle accident a few months ago. His replacement is the new guy and wants to make tons of changes right off the bat. I'm more of a set it and forget it type but I guess all the pretty buttons and faders are too tempting

Kind of interesting how certain frequencies get amplified and others get canceled once things start rolling. I remember playing my Dingwall saying this thing sounds weird in solo mode...in full band mode it was golden..

[TimmyP]

IME, most PAs that have subs need to have the graphic's 80Hz band cut about 6db. This smooths the PA out, and allows the subs to be turned up a bit for some decent low end.

Most bass cabs have a peak around 160Hz which should be EQ'd out.

Most bass cabs also have a peak around 60Hz which it may be wise to EQ out.

[mrokern]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

IME, most PAs that have subs need to have the graphic's 80Hz band cut about 6db. This smooths the PA out, and allows the subs to be turned up a bit for some decent low end.

Most bass cabs have a peak around 160Hz which should be EQ'd out.

Most bass cabs also have a peak around 60Hz which it may be wise to EQ out.

YEOUCH! What PAs have you been working on?

6dB down at 80Hz would suck the life out of most of the decent rigs I've come across.

-Mark

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Usually in a live band situation, it sounds better if you pull 200 to 250 Hz down a bit. It might be stage bounce that causes the abundance of acoustic energy in that frequency range, but it's usually there and if you compensate for it your mix will sound cleaner.