Going Ampless

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

It emulates well the great classic amps of yore. It is a quiet and full-featured DI. The end.

What about this alleged 'mid scoop' I'm hearing so much about? Anyone confirm/deny this?

[scottfeldstein]

Confirmed, for the SansAmp Bass Driver DI. As I said "classic amps of yore." The mid scoop is part of how that big rig sound is achieved. It's supposed to sound like a big Ampeg tube head atop an 810 fridge with a mic in front of it. And it pretty much does.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

Confirmed, for the SansAmp Bass Driver DI. As I said "classic amps of yore." The mid scoop is part of how that big rig sound is achieved. It's supposed to sound like a big Ampeg tube head atop an 810 fridge with a mic in front of it. And it pretty much does.

Tried the Para Driver? Same deal? Looks to be near the same device. Makes me wonder why the BDDI doesn't have mid control (though I see it has presence) - surely it couldn't hurt?

Edit: The BDDI is clearly intended for bass, while I'm guessing the Para is more a universal DI?

[scottfeldstein]

Originally Posted by hoketus

Edit: The BDDI is clearly intended for bass, while I'm guessing the Para is more a universal DI?

That's how it seems to me, too.

[fivestringgecko]

One thing that people sometimes forget is that you can actually adjust the mids on a BDDI... Boost or cut the Bass/Treble knobs in equal amounts, and it "adjusts the mids." Think of it this way: the mids are hard wired at 12:00, and if you move the bass/treb knobs to 9:00 and you're boosting mids. Move both EQ knobs to 3:00 and you're cutting mids. (at 750Hz, according to the manual).

Going ampless is nice 1) if you have a sound guy who knows what he's doing and 2) everyone is going to the board. If either one is lacking, ampless can be a struggle. Unfortunately there isn't a "Perfect Solution," I've had good and bad experiences both ways. It's more like... picking the lesser of two evils, which set of problems you are more willing to deal with. Gumby makes an important point, with in-ears, having soundboard issues (feedback, pops, squeals, noise, etc) go straight into your ears is a very real risk. I WILL NOT use in-ears unless I know the sound guy has a limiter set up on ALL channels coming back to me. Even then, still not perfect, but some insurance.

By choice, I'd much rather schlep a live amp to a gig and be in control of myself, rather than leave it up to some sound guy you've never met. I've worked with a couple that have been awesome, I've worked with more that have been crap. At least with my own rig, the sound guy can massacre me in the house, but I'll still be okay on stage. A third option I've played with is a "best of both worlds" kind of thing... I'll bring a not-so-big live rig and then run a headphone line from my amp to myself. A little live bass rig for the stage and a dedicated bass channel in my headphones for me.

As for DI's/Preamps... I've tried a few and have been running a Tone Hammer for quite some time now on my main board. I have a BDDI on my other board, but I really dig the TH because it has a great flexible EQ. You can still scoop the heck out of your sound if you want, but without the unavoidable heavy coloration of the BDDI. I recently upgraded to a Programmable BDDI in a trade deal, so I'm giving that a run on my main board for a couple weeks, but I can already tell I'll be going back to the Tone Hammer and the PBDDI will go to the other board where the BDDI was.

Like Scott mentioned, the BDDI does a great job if you're going straight to house and want a big dirty SVT-ish sound. Unfortunately, that's what it does... that sound, on or off. I run the Tone Hammer as my main DI because for me it's a little more flexible. It's a better compromise of working better with my live rig and still being able to dial in a good sound for going straight to the board. Plus don't forget, the TH does have the AGS circuit if you need/want a little dirt as well.

5sg.

[nick98338]

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

I've been working towards an ampless solution for some time now.

My main rig right now is Amplitube iOS (yes, my iPhone is my bass rig), straight to the board. I'm using Irig as my interface at the moment but am about to upgrade to the Apogee Jam. Only effects I'm using is compression and occasionally some light chorus.

I've got a separate mixer that I use for IEM.

I'm interested in knowing how you manage positioning of the iPhone and cabling. I use an iPod Touch for personal practice. I've thought about using the rig on stage, but I haven't found a convenient way to attach the iPod Touch to me, or other gear. And the cabling from bass to interface, to iPod, to DI, is a pain. Please detail how you manage all of this. Thanks.

[fivestringgecko]

+1 I'm interested as well. I've tried Amplitube/iRig on my iPad, but had feedback issues when using it live. Of course, I was using it with an amp rather than going straight to board, so I'm pretty sure that was the issue. I'd be interested to hear about how the Apogee works for you, as well.

5sg.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by nick98338

I'm interested in knowing how you manage positioning of the iPhone and cabling. I use an iPod Touch for personal practice. I've thought about using the rig on stage, but I haven't found a convenient way to attach the iPod Touch to me, or other gear. And the cabling from bass to interface, to iPod, to DI, is a pain. Please detail how you manage all of this. Thanks.

I've got a keyboard stand with a shelf that it just kinda sits on with the mixer and recorder. I haven't used it out yet, I'm still tweaking it to get the best possible sound.
For live use, I'm planning on having it attached to my mic stand, with a quality DI at my feet.
If you run straight to your amp instead of DI, you can turn the amp model off and just use the effects.

[fivestringgecko]

Did you have any problem with low end loss? Maybe it's because I've been running through a 1x15 (x2) rig, but I felt like the sound in Amplitube was a little thin. Even going through headphones it felt the same compared to my normal mixer setup.

5sg.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Did you have any problem with low end loss? Maybe it's because I've been running through a 1x15 (x2) rig, but I felt like the sound in Amplitube was a little thin. Even going through headphones it felt the same compared to my normal mixer setup.

5sg.

I did have issues with low end loss, until IK stepped up and released the B15R model with a new 1 x 15". Also, going from an iPhone 3GS to a 4S made ALL the difference in sound quality. Of course the low end you get will also depend on the PA system that amplifies it.

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

I did have issues with low end loss, until IK stepped up and released the B15R model with a new 1 x 15". Also, going from an iPhone 3GS to a 4S made ALL the difference in sound quality. Of course the low end you get will also depend on the PA system that amplifies it.

Hmm... I'll have to check out that model. I'm on an iPad with iOS 6, maybe it's time to revisit Amplitube.

5sg.

[Gougedeye]

So, except for out door shows and really large rooms, my band goes completely ampless. We purchased two
Bose M1L2 that we use for all small and medium rooms, which is mostly what we play. I use a Aguilar Tone Hammer and the guitarists each use the Line 6 HD500 and the keys go direct. we mic the kick drum. This set up works great for us! Easy in, easy out.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by Gougedeye

So, except for out door shows and really large rooms, my band goes completely ampless. We purchased two
Bose M1L2 that we use for all small and medium rooms, which is mostly what we play. I use a Aguilar Tone Hammer and the guitarists each use the Line 6 HD500 and the keys go direct. we mic the kick drum. This set up works great for us! Easy in, easy out.

Interesting. I'm wondering how this technology will improve and how/when this will catch on. Perhaps one day we won't need to use backline anymore (wouldn't that be a dream?)

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by hoketus

Interesting. I'm wondering how this technology will improve and how/when this will catch on. Perhaps one day we won't need to use backline anymore (wouldn't that be a dream?)

For set up/tear down, yeah man, it's pretty awesome! I played a local production of Hair this summer where everyone was ampless (even the drums, a V-Drum kit) and it was killer... We could hear everything at nice not-loud volumes, no one yelled at us to turn down, and sound in the house was great because we had a sound guy who really knew his stuff. Set up and tear down was a breeze, too: bass > pedalboard > mixer... Done. All I needed was my gig bag and Pedaltrain Mini.

But man, there's just something about having a bass amp behind you and being able to feel the bass...

5sg.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

For set up/tear down, yeah man, it's pretty awesome! I played a local production of Hair this summer where everyone was ampless (even the drums, a V-Drum kit) and it was killer... We could hear everything at nice not-loud volumes, no one yelled at us to turn down, and sound in the house was great because we had a sound guy who really knew his stuff. Set up and tear down was a breeze, too: bass > pedalboard > mixer... Done. All I needed was my gig bag and Pedaltrain Mini.

But man, there's just something about having a bass amp behind you and being able to feel the bass...

5sg.

That's what has kept me from going totally ampless for so long, it's that feeling of having the amp behind you. No matter how huge you sound in your ears, not FEELING the bass coming from that spot where your amp should be is really distracting.

[DonaldR]

I played an ampless gig some years ago (bass > peavey tube preamp > mixer), drummer with V-Drum and guitar with pod. We had 2x Mackie 450 + sub on each side, placed almost behind us, and 2 monitors were enough.

I breeze to setup (30 minutes with soundcheck) and the "feeling" was really there because I was close to the subs. That's how I want to do every gig, maybe going IEM for bigger venues.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by LHbassist

I've been using a Radial Tonebone Bassbone for years now. TWO channels, VERY reliable, transparent DI, full rotary eq on one channel- with a MIDRANGE control, that the Sansamp strangely does not have... it's the most important parameter in bass tone, in my opinion.

I wonder then - seems like a very common complaint (and usually the only complaint) about the BBDI is the lack of a mid control/sweepable mid.

Tech 21 doesn't seem interested in adding these features to the BDDI - but the Para Driver has both. So why choose the BDDI over the Para? Is it the simplicity? Or is that 'Ampeg big rig' sound only achievable by the BDDI?

I'd be very interested in hearing opinions from anyone who has used both direct to board, to see how they stack up.

[jg919]

Hi!
I like to use the BDDI for gigs with and without the rig.
The lack of mid control on the BDDI has never posed a problem to me, and I am very mid range conscious of my sound and feel. The way to adjust mids effectively is to think of the blend control as your mid control. I rarely ever dial in a great deal of blend to the right, mostly just to scoop the sound - and achieve a smoothed tone...or a domp, domp, dompey mid range tone, using blend to the left.
All in all, I like to set it up with no blend, then ease it to the right to smoothen out the sound. If I feel it's too transparent, I'll take the blend to the left a little, or add some mid on the active bass - a music man sterling.
Alternatively, for a more middy sound, take the treble and bass controls back a bit, and turn up the gain and output. A very nice high - gain tone!
Anyway, just my two cents. Have fun!

[Kirkowitz]

Hey- Just to muddy the waters a little..... I've been considering picking up a micro amp that has a good DI- and is safe to use without a speaker attached. I understand you can do this with the Aguilar tone hammer 350. Not much bigger than an active DI and add a small speaker and you got an amp if you need it

[scottfeldstein]

Or a GK MB200.