Great in the mix, awful on it's own

Toadsmacker · #1 09-05-2011, 07:49 PM

I wasn't totally sure which forum this would fit in, but I think this one will be alright.

Do any of you guys ever find that you work out a great tone for your band during rehearsal or at a soundcheck, and then when you play on you find that your tone is not very good at all? I just recently observed that my tone fills in the spaces in my 3-piece band just great, probably because I have a tiny bit of grit/overdrive from my Sansamp PDDI. However this does not sound pleasing to my ear on it's own and a great solo tone does not even come close to filling out the sonic spectrum in the mix.

I wouldn't call it a problem, but I just find it funny how something so "bad" can sound amazing with a band. Anybody else have thoughts on this?

fokof · #2 09-05-2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toadsmacker

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Some might get this after a couple of years , some will never get it. Others will understand right away.

The important thing ; the band's overall sound , not yours.
(unless you play solo of course)

You can bash soundmans as much as you want but if the musicians don't apply this in their 'tone' , someone has to do it and it will be the soundman or the producer.

IME , IMHO , YMMV , etc....

**garmenteros** · #3 09-05-2011, 07:56 PM

Some basses that come to mind that fill out great in a band and not so much by themselves is a stingray going for that solid cut through anything bright tone. Awful on its own, but perfect for a hard rock setting.

It also happens the other way around, basses sound good on their own and dont cut it with the band.

electracoyote · #4 09-05-2011, 07:59 PM

Yep, great tone out of the mix, crap in the mix, pretty common.

Also, in my opinion, Precision basses are not the most impressive tone out of the mix, but usually excellent results in the mix.

Noise is weird.

calebbarton · #5 09-05-2011, 08:03 PM

I actually had to work on this for a long long long time to get my tone to be something that I enjoy hearing while also cutting through in the mix. A Jazz bass solved this problem for me

jgroh · #6 09-05-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebbarton

I actually had to work on this for a long long long time to get my tone to be something that I enjoy hearing while also cutting through in the mix.

Same here. I grew up in 3 and 4 piece bands (3 piece with singer) so I developed "my tone" to fit those types of bands. Once I got into cover bands with 5 and 6 musicians, I really had to revamp my tone.

LiamCohl · #7 09-06-2011, 07:54 AM

that is entirely true, takes some people too long if ever to realize that, frequently when I record my bass with my band it will sound great, then solo it and it is not pleasing to the ears. That is definitely part of the magic of the p bass, no getting buried, none of that cutting through crap, it sits in the mix in just the right place. one thing I learned after years of working as a sound tech and mixer is when everyones trying to cut through then there is no mix, have yet to work for a band playing huge venues (arena+) who haven't figured this out or been told yet, but have mixed for too many bands at random local club shows who just having had no clue how much they were sabotaging their own sound by trying to cut through instead of allowing themselves to sit in their right place. frequently Guitar players with too much low end and bass players with way too much high end on attack or bedroom tone turned up too loud.

FuzzBoxVoodoo · #8 09-06-2011, 08:03 AM

+1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiamCohl

that is entirely true, takes some people too long if ever to realize that, frequently when I record my bass with my band it will sound great, then solo it and it is not pleasing to the ears. That is definitely part of the magic of the p bass, no getting buried, none of that cutting through crap, it sits in the mix in just the right place. one thing I learned after years of working as a sound tech and mixer is when everyones trying to cut through then there is no mix, have yet to work for a band playing huge venues (arena+) who haven't figured this out or been told yet, but have mixed for too many bands at random local club shows who just having had no clue how much they were sabotaging their own sound by trying to cut through instead of allowing themselves to sit in their right place. frequently Guitar players with too much low end and bass players with way too much high end on attack or bedroom tone turned up too loud.

tdub0199 · #9 09-06-2011, 08:17 AM

Yep, My Ideal "solo" tone is way different that my ideal "In the Mix" tone....

Joe Nerve · #10 09-06-2011, 08:22 AM

That's why it's impossible to tell what a bass is really capable of in a Guitar Center or bedroom. I never know whether a bass is a keeper or not until I take it out to a gig or rehearsal. It's also why this is my weapon of choice:

In addition to what you said, settings for the perfect tone in a rehearsal change once you hit a stage. Every room and every stage mix is entirely different. The above gives me all the tweakability I ever need as I can easily dial in any sound I'm looking for. Without having to be limited to what my amp can do, nor having to fiddle endlessly with amp knobs. I like having the control in the bass. Definitely not a P bass kinda guy here. Too much of a control freak fer sure.

Eublet · #11 09-06-2011, 08:23 AM

You know, I totally understand the "fitting in the mix" thing, but I strongly disagree with the folks who start saying the P-bass is the answer for everything when it comes to playing bass in a live setting. Simple fact is that a large variety of basses have worked for live music for decades now, and one doesn't need to play a Pbass with flats to sound good in a mix. Having some general knowledge about EQ is all you need, as well as understanding what role the bass has in a given song or band.

fitani · #12 09-06-2011, 08:32 AM

+1 ^^

Here's my opinion which can be slightly subjective depending on your taste.

When listening to the band mix most of the harmonics, fret noise, and position shifts (Undesirable Sounds) are masked by the other instruments which are much louder in the same frequency range). In other words your ears don't care much for those unwanted sounds and are able to focus on the low end (desirable) sound of your bass. again depending on your taste.

Emibass · #13 09-06-2011, 08:34 AM

Pbass with flats sound good in a mix....sorry I had to say it

For me: the EBMM Stingray 5h never stayed good in a mix, I had to eq the "(/& out of it to make it sound decent.
OTOH: Ibanez, G&L, Jazz bass....no problem at all.

Out of all...the G&L L2500 sounds good on his own or in the mix.

Eublet · #14 09-06-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emibass

Pbass with flats sound good in a mix....sorry I had to say it

No apology necessary. I agree with you. It does sound good, but it can also be the wrong instrument for the song. Sometimes a brighter tone is required.

Quote:

Out of all...the G&L L2500 sounds good on his own or in the mix.

Agree here also. I got more compliments playing an L2500 than I think I have with most anything else. It just always fit with the right amount of bottom and snarl.

WalterBush · #15 09-06-2011, 09:04 AM

It's why I use a wireless. I find out pretty quick if what I'm doing works with the band or not by walking out front during soundcheck.

I've also found that despite my love affair with active EQ and tons of knobs on a bass, it's hard to go wrong with a good bass that's just set flat and brought up to volume with the kick drum. It may not be ideal to my ears, but it almost always works for the mix.

Rual1 · #16 09-06-2011, 09:28 AM

My rule of thumb for live sound is to increase the mids (upper and lower), cut the bass a bit and use a tad more treble than what I usually play with. Doesn't sound very good on it's own but in a live band setting it seems to sit perfectly.

fokof · #17 09-06-2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eublet

Having some general knowledge about EQ is all you need, as well as understanding what role the bass has in a given song or band.

Exactly.

I'll add: your role and what you play in a song and the way you'll play it has a LOT more to do than any given gear.

About gear : a P-Bass with flat may sound good in a Blues song but EDIT Not everywhere.

YMMV

KCLRbass · #18 09-06-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiamCohl

one thing I learned after years of working as a sound tech and mixer is when everyones trying to cut through then there is no mix, have yet to work for a band playing huge venues (arena+) who haven't figured this out or been told yet, but have mixed for too many bands at random local club shows who just having had no clue how much they were sabotaging their own sound by trying to cut through instead of allowing themselves to sit in their right place.

Oh man, can't even tell you how true this is. Wasn't until I started working with studio/live engineers that I actually TRUST that things started falling into place.

Band members who ALWAYS want to stand out + Sound engineers who don't want to listen = Worst gig ever

gnjpowell · #19 09-06-2011, 09:41 AM

The gentleman that said: "When listening to the band mix most of the harmonics, fret noise, and position shifts (Undesirable Sounds) are masked by the other instruments which are much louder in the same frequency range). In other words your ears don't care much for those unwanted sounds and are able to focus on the low end (desirable) sound of your bass." is really onto something.... IMHO this is why flats work so well in a mix and why Leo picked them.

electracoyote · #20 09-06-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

I never know whether a bass is a keeper or not until I take it out to a gig or rehearsal.

There's the bottom line.

And for me, it's the gig. That's how I keep my bass collection in check. Gig it. Then decide if you really need it, or if it's a narcissistic impulse.