Great Show..Poor sound.. IMO

zon6c-f · #1 10-05-2010, 06:38 PM

Sunday, my wife and I went to the Verizon Amptheatre in Alpharetta, Ga. Project 9-6-1 Family Reunion show: Main bands: Sevindust followed by Bullet for my Valentine, Buck Cherry, with Shinedown as the closer.

Great venue and staff..Great show, but the sound?? OK, I am nearly 57. Call me a geezer, but I know the difference between distorted tone, as favored by our guitar brethren, and some bass players, and distorted SOUND. I tried to imagine what EQ curve would have been displayed, but it was pretty much hyper exagerrated bass and low mid, with all else but center middle mid killed.

As a bass player. I love to hear bass, but not "boom". The bass guitar and drum sound was same for each band and kick drums litterally hit my chest like a concussion blast. We moved to 3 different locations..same bad sound. Cymbals were non existant. You could hear minimal guitar occasionally. The vocals were so loud as to be hyper distorted. And bass guitar?? I watched several nimble fingered bassists playing, whose sound was undistinguishable from floor toms or bass drums. Why bother with a bass costing over $50??..and strings.??..probably all rounds but sounded like 2 inch thick rubber ropes.

OK..Imagine a boom box with everything turned to 10 and in the middle of a hurricane .....is my best overall description. I heard Deep Purple in 1972 when they held the world record for loudest sound, in the old Atlanta Municipal Auditorium...worst acoustics on the planet, but for however loud they were, Deep Purple was clear; you clearly heard . although extremely loud: vocals, drums. cymbals, bass, keys and guitar.

I just don't get it...Why bother with sophistcated equipment and instruments, if you cannot clearly hear each one? Again this was a metal concert, but I could have stuffed a microphone in a cardboard box and kicked it in time with what each bass player was fingering and I would have had better tone. I could have pantomimed the cymbal work and no one would have noticed.

If I was a rep from any brands I recognised on stage: Marshall, Fender, Ampeg, Music Man, Ashdown, Pearl drums...
I would have pitched fit!!....or if I was a rep from a record label??...No Way would my product be alowed to sound like that. OK..Some vocals were intentionally "cookie monster"... I can deal with that...if it sounds clearly as it does on CD or even radio broadcast. Again, I'll admit to being an old codger, but I really felt as though I was assaulted by very poor sound, which was waaaayyy too loud. Sadly I don't think 99% of the audience would know good sound if it fell on their heads.

Imagine a 1960's combo amp with the whole band and drums miked all together into it..Now place that inside a giant dumpster..place the audience inside too..That's what I heard...and the venue is an outdoor ampitheatre.

OK..I WANT TO "HEAR" FROM YOU PROS ...Defend your position.. defend what I heard...And yes, my right ear still rings from Sunday. Thanks..zon6c-f.

elgecko · #2 10-05-2010, 06:50 PM

Groove trumps tone...every time!

dannylectro · #3 10-05-2010, 10:37 PM

No tone, no groove... every time.

elgecko · #4 10-05-2010, 10:40 PM

Then how was it a "great show"?

KingRazor · #5 10-05-2010, 10:46 PM

I have no idea what the circumstances were for the sound engineer(s), but if I was hearing what you were hearing, there would be some changes. I don't know about you guys but I like to hear everything. I tend to mix too quiet as opposed to too loud.

Ben Clarke · #6 10-05-2010, 11:03 PM

In all likelihood the poor sound quality had little or nothing to do with the amps and music gear, but with the PA and its operation.

GregShadoan · #7 10-06-2010, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zon6c-f

OK..I WANT TO "HEAR" FROM YOU PROS ...Defend your position.. defend what I heard...And yes, my right ear still rings from Sunday. Thanks..zon6c-f.

There are some shite engineers out there, and ALOT of crap PA.

I offer no defense. Fullsail maybe.........

WayneP · #8 10-06-2010, 08:56 AM

I’m used to seeing this kind of thing at clubs, but it’s rather surprising to see at what I would presume to be a first-class venue. I would assume a place like this was treated to a system installation and set-up by a first-class sound company. I would also assume a venue like this would only employ a first-class FOH soundman.

Regardless, the primary reason for muddy sound is too much low end in places where there shouldn’t be any, like the guitars, vocals, etc. Even a good system can be ruined by a soundman that doesn’t know anything about frequency slotting.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

fokof · #9 10-06-2010, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Clarke

In all likelihood the poor sound quality had little or nothing to do with the amps and music gear, but with the PA and its operation.

IME , room acoustics are responsible for poor bass management 99% of the time.
(I'm talking high level/class touring bands with good PA support)

M0ses · #10 10-06-2010, 03:51 PM

It was a metal show. What did you expect? They sound like that on the album, too.

okcrum · #11 10-06-2010, 04:59 PM

I was at a NIN/Bowie show in the 90s, in Camden NJ. NIN was on first, and sounded pretty much like the OP described the show he attended. Bowie went on 2nd, and everything suddenly turned clean, crisp, and easy to hear. I'm not even sure the levels changed that much, just that the mains came out of flat topping. Clear (-100) to NIN's sound engineer.

Dr. Love · #12 10-06-2010, 05:24 PM

I've noticed a lot of shows in recent years having "lead kick drum" and everything else is an indistinct mushy roar. I swear there are sound guys who think the kick is the most important component of the song and mix so that's all you really hear. Maybe some styles that might be appropriate... but not everything.

I really dislike distorted vocals...it fatigues my ears regardless of the decibel level, really.

okcrum · #13 10-06-2010, 06:40 PM

It makes you wonder what the bands were getting in their monitors, and if they're really on top of their FOH guys.

Gearhead17 · #14 10-07-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Love

I've noticed a lot of shows in recent years having "lead kick drum" and everything else is an indistinct mushy roar. I swear there are sound guys who think the kick is the most important component of the song and mix so that's all you really hear. Maybe some styles that might be appropriate... but not everything.

I really dislike distorted vocals...it fatigues my ears regardless of the decibel level, really.

I am hearing way too many soundguys make the kick drum and toms way too loud. Too much 100-300hz sound from those items along with deafening kick drum volumes. In almost every case, it makes the bass non-existent, the guitars turn into mush and the vocals get buried or at least hard to understand.

After hearing nearly 7 bands in a row mixed the same way, I finally heard one band that was completely different. The drums were there and you could hear every part of the kit along with the kick drum, but not so damn boomy/muddy sounding. Along with that, you could hear EVERYBODY on stage CLEARLY! I finally heard a bass player! They sounded the absolute best for the day and I stayed for the entire hour they played.

Drums are important, but need to be fitting the band's sound rather than making them the loudest thing on the planet.

JimmyM · #15 10-08-2010, 09:05 AM

the "i paid a lot for these subs and i'm gonna use 'em" syndrome. it is definitely not a product of the room. anything that's wrong with the room can be fixed to a certain degree. it can't be fixed 100% sometimes, but it can be fixed. and the bass drum and and bass don't need to be overbearing.

i think the problem is really the soundmen, especially younger ones, are used to listening to bass heavy music like hip hop in their cars with the low end cranked, and they like it. therefore they mix accordingly. and they like subs...a lot...way too much, actually. we've had that happen at our shows sometimes, and i play oldies! of course, bowzer will get on them if it happens at soundcheck, but he can't be there to control what happens during the show.

call it a sign of the times.

rockstarbassist · #16 10-08-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M0ses

It was a metal show. What did you expect? They sound like that on the album, too.

Really?
On every album I have by any of those bands, it doesn't sound that way.
Especially Shinedown and Sevendust.

It was a big live show. You're pretty much only gonna get "boom" nowadays. Has little to nothing to do w/ the band and just about everything with the guy behind the soundboard.
I've seen Muse and Tool multiple times in 20k+ venues and could hear every note both Chris and JC played.
Probably at this show they had hired sound and not running their own crew.

A similar tour came through here that we went to (10 Years, Sevendust, Puddle of Mudd, Chevelle and Shinedown) and the bass was like that across the board. You could hear Eric (Bass, Shinedown) a bit better but that's b/c they don't detune really low like the other bands.
Pretty confident that was hired out sound too, and not a touring sound crew but could be wrong. But doubt it.

zon6c-f · #17 10-09-2010, 09:01 PM

OK..Thanks to all for letting me rant. All of your opinions are appreciated. I hesitated from visiting the Shindown site, to avoid a rain of global hate, with no real answers. I hope one of their pros is on talkbass and will offer and opinion.

Here is my response to most of you:
elgecko & dannylectro...I see both points about tone VS groove.
elgecko..It was a "great show" because I saw 4 great bands giving their all, which is another reason for my concern. Also, the venue is clean and staff was great.

Wayne P... I enjoy reading other posts from you as well as your replies to mine. The "room" is indeed a first class venue however it is an outdoor amphitheatre, with a covered portion, so I can't blame it on architecture/ room acoustics. Same response to "fokof".

Moses...No, they don't sound distorted just because it was a metal show. I have been to loud and clear metal shows, such as David T. Chastain LOUD and CLEAR. Chastain is one of the better musicians playing electric guitar; he helped me to understand the need for music theory. He can write every note he plays..<www.leviathanrecords.com> .

With current technology, I expect live sound to be clear as CD or radio . I have heard that too: Steve Miller at the Atlanta Lakewood Ampitheatre; just like a 50 foot tall home system..loud and clear.

Dr. Love and gearhead 17: Yeah..."Lead Drum" that was the sound; bass drum/ floor toms only, with no cymbals.

okcrum....If I head just drums and distorted vocals through my monitors?? If I heard on stage remotely what I heard in the seats, I would be deaf by next show.

Jimmy M. Always a pleasure, sir. You went toe-to toe for days with Jeff Berlin; ended in a draw. You are a gentleman. I love reading your responses. If you're ever in Atlanta, look me up. As for subs??? I thought that may have been the culprit. I looked, didn't see any. I saw left and right flying array of boxes...don't know what was in them, but they sounded like someone took a screwdriver to the cones....Squirrels maybe??..They knaw on anything. We sat in 3 different sections, including the lawn seating area , before our final seating destination. I estimate we saw most of it between 300-500 feet from stage level.

rockstarbassist: My personal listening taste is classic rock and electric blues. I listen to everything except hip-hop. Oddly it seems as though a degree of hip-hop is in some current metal although I don't like it so much, but unless I keep am open mind, I can't form subjective opinions. First song to employ that was by Queen in the 70's...LOL.. There is even a touch of it in contemporary country, which I liken to a more hook-filled
70's southern rock, with pedal steel and fiddle and artificial harmonies. Again Queen still rules vocal harmony and Wishbone Ash for twin guitar leads, IMHO. In a contemporary respect, I hear symphonic qualities in some metal arrangements..Please no hate from symphonic folks. [And yes, I began on string bass in high school. Simandle method nearly ruined my electric fingereing approach. 4 fingers make a lot more sense to me, even on uprights ].

Finally....I called the venue, but only got voice-mail,; I wanted to speak to a real person. I called a local sound company for a pro opinion. They guessed that it was a tour sound crew travelling with the tour. If that's the case, I WOULD FIRE THEM. Am I the only one on talkbass from ga. who saw this show and heard this "sound" ?. .. Thanks to all.