Grrr! Church Just Bought a Drum Shield

[jaywa]

Just the front shield. The kit is on a 3-foot high riser and about 3 feet behind the riser are a couple of small scrims and behind the scrims is another 10-15 feet of backstage depth. There's no sort of absorbing material behind the kit at all.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by T-MOST

I think you are. Drums are inherently loud and cymbals are worse. There is no way I would sit 2 feet away from our drummer for 2 hours if we didn't have a drum sheild!

More often I find that the drummer is inherently loud, not the kit. Aside from general musicianship & dynamic control there are mutes, dowel sticks, brushes, and the list goes on.

[agreatheight]

Jawya - can you move to behind the shield? I would.

[jaywa]

No, the shield barely wraps around the front half of the kit. And the riser only has enough footprint for the drums, nobody else.

The more I think about this situation the more I think the shield is up there as more of a psychological / prop thing than for actual sound purposes. Being a member of that church I can only hope we didn't spend too much money on it...

[will33]

IMO, this.....

Originally Posted by drummer5359

I've played church rooms as drummer. There are tons of ways to tone down the drums without a shield. Technique is number one, heads with some type of control rings or moon jell and dryer cymbals. Even different sticks can help. I think that they are trying to control the perception of a problem rather than a problem.

and this......

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I hate the quest so many people are on to eliminate all traces of bleed. It's silly. A little bleed never hurt anyone.

are the answers.....and to hell with the plexiglass. Can I say that here?


Yep, churches are harder to mix....some are more like gymnasiums even. So, the musicians should conduct themselves appropriately.


I also don't go along with all the anti-mic bleed stuff. It's live music, not a dedicated studio listening room. Yep, mics are live, they pick up live stuff people are playing.....and the problem is?

I guess I'm used to my more traditional, old-fashioned german Lutheran churches. They are generally smaller, and the hyms consist of an organ and the congregation using their natural voices to make the joyful noise. People learn to sing as little kids and carry that all the way through their lives.

I've been to some Baptist services that had live bands, but even then, there weren't excessive volume problems and it was pretty cool. I remember when I was stationed in Germany, there is a church in Mainz....Catholic maybe, that was just beautiful, you could feel it when you walked in that place, and when you sang something, your natural voice sounded absolutely huge and the place must've had an an easy 3 second ring, maybe more. That was an awesome place to hear voices.

You guys playing huge super-churches or something that aren't designed for music?

[Samsound]

Originally Posted by will33

I also don't go along with all the anti-mic bleed stuff. It's live music, not a dedicated studio listening room. Yep, mics are live, they pick up live stuff people are playing.....and the problem is?
?

I know in my church, some of our backing vocalists are afraid of their own voice. They whimper into the Mic and complain they can't hear themselves. Trying to mix a multitrack of these people is a nightmare. It's all cymbal with the sound of heavy breathing underneath. I miss our V-Drums.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by will33

You guys playing huge super-churches or something that aren't designed for music?

A lot of the time the problem is we're playing in small churches that aren't designed for music. Or at least, not amplified music.

[rotis]

I used to attend a church that sat about 800 or so. The drummer was behind a shield but the guy with the congas and other percussion stuff wasn't. If you were in the front his crash ripped through your ears. I wished to God they put him behind Plexiglas.

[I<34080]

Originally Posted by T-MOST

I think you are. Drums are inherently loud and cymbals are worse. There is no way I would sit 2 feet away from our drummer for 2 hours if we didn't have a drum sheild!

Ear plugs.

[will33]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

A lot of the time the problem is we're playing in small churches that aren't designed for music. Or at least, not amplified music.

Friend of mine has these quiet drumsticks he uses to play at home. They're weighted, feel like a real stick, sound good, but the end that hits the drum is a narrower plasticy type thing. They'll play quieter than rods without the drummer feeling like they're holding pencils. I'll have to get with him and find out what those are. One possible option for quieting down drummers who won't hold back on their own.

Originally Posted by Samsound

I know in my church, some of our backing vocalists are afraid of their own voice. They whimper into the Mic and complain they can't hear themselves. Trying to mix a multitrack of these people is a nightmare. It's all cymbal with the sound of heavy breathing underneath. I miss our V-Drums.

Can try something here. My guitar player isn't bashful, but his voice is naturally pretty soft-spoken and if he hears a lot of himself in the monitor, he instinctively backs off the mic and takes himself out of FOH. I kind of trick him into getting up on the mic and projecting by setting his level in the monitor a good bit lower than the rest of us. This sort of forces him to get closer to the mic and project his voice in order to hear himself, and ends up in the right spot out front. I also don't have to run his mic so hot that way.

Works for us. Might work for you, might not.

[Wadge]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

It's not necessary to play loud to sound good. Until bands started using massive PA systems in clubs in the 70s, it was possible to play with no PA support in moderate sized clubs and sound good without blowing everyone out in the front rows. Anyone on TB over the age of 55 will testify to this.

Back in the day, in the big band eras, where upright bass was still unamplified and saxes had to compete with a big band, if you were a loud drummer you had a hard time getting a gig.

[will33]

These aren't the exact model of quiet sticks my buddy uses but his are something very similair with the small plastic tips. I think his have a little longer tips so you can use more of the side of the stick for quieter cymbal hits as well. I didn't know they also make quiet beaters.

http://chicago.inetgiant.com/items-f...umming-5508695

I'm not a drummer, but I sat in and played drums for some tunes at a jam party of his. To me, they feel close to regular sticks, at least close enough any half decent drummer shouldn't have a problem using them.

They are quieter than sticks. They will still hit fairly loud if you just really bash, but, if the drummer can manage to hold back just a little bit, the sticks quiet it down a lot more, so it seems the drummer is holding back a good deal more than they really are.

Anyway, something like that in addition to ringers, gels, bass drum stuffing etc. ought to quiet things down enough for anyplace. We jammed those in this guys livingroom in a small house in a fairly quiet neighborhood along with like a 30 or 40 watt bass amp, 5watt guitar amp, and just enough vocal in a little PA to get a little bit louder than a natural, unamplified voice and the volume is such that neighbors babies can sleep, etc.

[gumbynotpokey]

Attended a church that built a room into the back of the back wall of the stage. The plexiglass was only the front of the box, flush with the back wall. This box had two doors on the back and a ladder going up (to the elevated platform). The first door was a thin, hollow door. Going in, you came to another door and when you opened it, you were in the box. Close the first door and you're cut off from the back hall. Close the second door and the soundproofing was evident. In short, that box was acoustically sealed and the kit was mic'd. At practice, I'd been a few feet from the drummer and couldn't hear him shouting at us while no one was playing. Mics on, he taps his sticks to get attention. This, coupled with Aviom for all of us (in-ears) was amazing in many respects. And it was a system I ended up despising. In-ears were good until we had 2 accidents with a huge pop/crack once, and another time a huge screech. Damage remains in my ears today (hearing loss, ringing, etc). From a music standpoint I hated being so isolated and cut off. My favorite thing? Standing a few feet from an acoustic kit and FEELING the groove. Just my opinion.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by gumbynotpokey

In-ears were good until we had 2 accidents with a huge pop/crack once, and another time a huge screech. Damage remains in my ears today (hearing loss, ringing, etc).

This illustrates the importance of using limiters with IEMs.

[Snarf]

I'm not a "christian musician" but I do play for a very small church, and have seen how other churches run their sound. Churches have a MAJOR fetish for these drum shields. I really don't understand why.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by will33

These aren't the exact model of quiet sticks my buddy uses but his are something very similair with the small plastic tips. I think his have a little longer tips so you can use more of the side of the stick for quieter cymbal hits as well. I didn't know they also make quiet beaters.

http://chicago.inetgiant.com/items-f...umming-5508695

I'm not a drummer, but I sat in and played drums for some tunes at a jam party of his. To me, they feel close to regular sticks, at least close enough any half decent drummer shouldn't have a problem using them.

They are quieter than sticks. They will still hit fairly loud if you just really bash, but, if the drummer can manage to hold back just a little bit, the sticks quiet it down a lot more, so it seems the drummer is holding back a good deal more than they really are.

Anyway, something like that in addition to ringers, gels, bass drum stuffing etc. ought to quiet things down enough for anyplace. We jammed those in this guys livingroom in a small house in a fairly quiet neighborhood along with like a 30 or 40 watt bass amp, 5watt guitar amp, and just enough vocal in a little PA to get a little bit louder than a natural, unamplified voice and the volume is such that neighbors babies can sleep, etc.

I've also been recommended these: http://www.vicfirth.com/products/americanjazz.php

Tried cool rods once but it didn't work out very well. Something like this may work.

We're still getting our IEM situation figured out, too.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by Snarf

I'm not a "christian musician" but I do play for a very small church, and have seen how other churches run their sound. Churches have a MAJOR fetish for these drum shields. I really don't understand why.

I'll repeat it again... it's PR...

----

I've been in the meetings (I'm on staff)...

"Man those drums are loud"...

"Well -- for about $300 we could put a plexi glass shield up that ---'may' have an impact"

"yes we should do this immediately"

====

I run an RTA/DB meter all the time.. was quieter before the shield...

---

Took it down and folks perceived it to be louder.

Why... PR... about 1/2 church folks don't like drums.

[csanders]

It is very much a PR thing. I've mixed at churches for about 14 years now on and off. Everything from organ, piano, and a few vocalists up through an 8 piece band at my current church.

We have a shield. It helps a bit when we use a choir so that the choir mics don't pick up the snare too terribly. The biggest thing that it seems to do is make people complain about the guitars being too loud instead of the drums.

I personally like that it gives me a teeeeny bit of buffer around the snare that keeps it from completely cutting faces off of the congregation. Our building is pretty much a carpeted gymnasium with *Decent* acoustics all things considered. In reality, I don't think that the shield does ENOUGH in my situation. The entire mix is still based on how loud the unamplified snare is, rather than me being able to choose a target volume for the entire band and place the snare where it needs to be. I'd really love an isolation booth, but both the worship leader and myself feel that they are absolutely hideous. Plus, one of our drummers is a very close friend and I really don't want to put him in a fishbowl if we can help it.

[chuck norriss]

We need a cage for the guitarist. He has the habit of cranking up his gain last minute, after hours of balancing & practice, instead of turning up his own aviom/ iem.

[Samsound]

Originally Posted by will33

Can try something here. My guitar player isn't bashful, but his voice is naturally pretty soft-spoken and if he hears a lot of himself in the monitor, he instinctively backs off the mic and takes himself out of FOH. I kind of trick him into getting up on the mic and projecting by setting his level in the monitor a good bit lower than the rest of us. This sort of forces him to get closer to the mic and project his voice in order to hear himself, and ends up in the right spot out front. I also don't have to run his mic so hot that way.

Works for us. Might work for you, might not.

I know that trick, too. Have tried, but they just won't belt it out. It cracks me up when they mutter "check...check" into the Mic, then I remember they actually sing that way, lol.