Guitar Cabinet Mic Technique - Is my Guitarist Wack?

jaywa · #1 06-28-2011, 01:53 PM

So the lead guitarist in my band rocks a 50-watt Mesa Boogie head with a Mesa 410 cabinet. I've noticed that when he mics his cabinet he uses an EXTREME off-axis approach (i.e., his mic is no more than 30 degrees from parallel to the grill cloth).

Is it common to angle a mic this much or is he losing a lot of effeciency by not lining it up more dead-on (the mic is an SM-57). This guitarist has been playing a long time and he has a good (not great) ear for sound so I don't want to challenge him on his setup unless I know for a fact he's doing it wrong.

tstone · #2 06-28-2011, 02:03 PM

The SM57 has a cardioid pattern (link) so it picks up pretty well from the sides. The amount of attenuation is frequency-dependent. At 60° off from being perpendicular to the grille cloth, he's only losing about 1 dB at 125 Hz, but as much as 9 dB at 4 kHz. Maybe he likes the high cut effect he gets from that orientation.

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

Corey Y · #3 06-28-2011, 02:05 PM

I'd say the most common off axis position is usually about parallel with the surface of the speaker cone or centered and aimed where the dust cap meets the cone. That doesn't mean it has to be done that way though. There are a lot of ways to mic a source and it depends on what you're trying to get out of it and how it interacts with everything else. If it sounds good, it's right.

jaywa · #4 06-28-2011, 02:14 PM

OK, well one reason I ask is that even though we're all on IEMs, he still runs really loud on stage volume (I stand between his amp and the drums, and his amp totally overpowers the drums)... so I was thinking if he put the mic more on-axis maybe he could turn down to a more reasonable volume and still be sending the same signal strength to the board. But if he's doing it for frequency attenuation purposes that's a whole different thing.

TimmyP · #5 06-28-2011, 10:36 PM

He just likes it cranked. This may be so he can feel it, or because he can't get the sound he wants otherwise. Mic placement has nothing to do with that. His amp is too big, and so is his cab - the people it's pointed at are getting a lot more volume and highs than anyone on stage, and the mix likely suffers greatly as a result. He needs to learn to work for the good of the band.

Hellbastard · #6 06-29-2011, 01:52 AM

You guys could get a Plexiglass amp Shield and place in front of the guitar amp. That way the guitar player gets to crank his amp, but you guys will have more control over the stage volume without losing anything in the FOH mix.

jaywa · #7 06-29-2011, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyP

His amp is too big, and so is his cab - the people it's pointed at are getting a lot more volume and highs than anyone on stage, and the mix likely suffers greatly as a result. He needs to learn to work for the good of the band.

No argument from me here, believe me. We have been trying to get him to drop the half-stack rig and just go with a 30 or 40-watt combo, but so far no luck there. He is mic'd thorough our P.A. that tops 26,000 watts when everything is firing so there's really no need for an arena scale guitar rig on stage, IMO.

staindbass · #8 06-29-2011, 07:31 AM

a 4x10 is arena scale?

people change the axis of the mic to lessen the treble/spittiness. it sounds more full because the mic picks up most of the treble from the front. instead of the plexiglass, if he tipped it up so the speakers fired toward his head so he can hear it better, he may turn down. if not, at least he wont be blasting the people in the front row with too much guitar.

jaywa · #9 06-29-2011, 07:44 AM

I do have to say, in his defense, his tone is good. I just wish he'd bring the stage volume down some and also he's one of these guys that keeps creeping the volume up as the show goes along. He's turning one knob or another on his amp almost every damn song, which is doubly bad because we run our own sound from the stage so I would expect that a mix that's pretty good at the beginning of the show is way too guitar heavy at the end.

Also the fact that we're running IEMs may actually be working against us because with his ears "plugged" he doesn't realize how extreme his volume really is. Although I know he runs most of the time with one earbud in and the other out so I would think he has a pretty good idea what the actual stage sound is like. Maybe his hearing is damaged by now and that's what actually sounds good to him.

Thankfully, our other guitarist goes direct to the board via a POD and monitors completely through his IEM so we're not fighting two concert rigs on stage, anyway.

DeathFromBelow · #10 06-29-2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staindbass

a 4x10 is arena scale?

It is on TB...

Also,if you need to wear earplugs,you're doing something wrong.

D.A.R.K. · #11 06-29-2011, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathFromBelow

It is on TB...

Also,if you need to wear earplugs,you're doing something wrong.

Standing next to a typical drummer?

Come to think of it, the only detriment from the mic'ing technique I can think of is if the angled position of the mic
made it address another sound source, such as the drums.

Doctor Dirt · #12 06-29-2011, 11:38 AM

Been micing guitar cabs for a long time, always with a 57 and always straight on. Placement is in the lower half of the speaker towards the outer rim, closest to the bottom of the cab. I'm always looking for the most bottom that the cab produces and I find it in that area. Same with a Bass cab, I prefer micing the Bass cab also but when its a smaller room or tight set up we just DI in. Doc

jaywa · #13 06-29-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Come to think of it, the only detriment from the mic'ing technique I can think of is if the angled position of the mic
made it address another sound source, such as the drums.

This is a really good point. Quite often the way we plot the stage and with the angle the guitarist positions the mic, it turns out that the guitar mic is pointing directly at the drums (albeit anywhere from 6 to 12 feet away and less than a foot off the ground). We sometimes have sound issues with the drums (particularly the high tom) so I wonder if that could be part of it.

D.A.R.K. · #14 06-29-2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

This is a really good point. Quite often the way we plot the stage and with the angle the guitarist positions the mic, it turns out that the guitar mic is pointing directly at the drums (albeit anywhere from 6 to 12 feet away and less than a foot off the ground). We sometimes have sound issues with the drums (particularly the high tom) so I wonder if that could be part of it.

Solo it and find out... this could be part of the reason for the higher volumes and constant tweaks as well, maybe he's fighting it in his ears. Even 12 feet away bleed can still be an issue.

walterw · #15 06-29-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

...I know he runs most of the time with one earbud in and the other out ... Maybe his hearing is damaged by now and that's what actually sounds good to him.

if it isn't damaged, it soon will be!

he'd be better off dumping the in-ears entirely if he's gonna do that.

jaywa · #16 06-30-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walterw

if it isn't damaged, it soon will be!

he'd be better off dumping the in-ears entirely if he's gonna do that.

I know. I'm gonna bring that up with him cause I'm not sure he knows that's an audiological no-no.

Both of my earbuds stay in all the time. Heck I don't even take them out on breaks sometimes

allexcosta · #17 06-30-2011, 08:39 AM

Best soundmen I met would mic based on what they were hearing, not in angles or theories found in books... Sound is a weird animal and has unexpected behavior. Approaching live sound with absolute truths always leads to trouble...

walterw · #18 06-30-2011, 07:15 PM

think of how many amps have been miked with a 57 hanging down over the front by the cable.

that's full-on 90° off-axis, and works fine. (not to say a senny 609 or 906 hanging by its cable wouldn't be better, since it's side-address.)

FunkMetalBass · #19 07-01-2011, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Best soundmen I met would mic based on what they were hearing, not in angles or theories found in books... Sound is a weird animal and has unexpected behavior. Approaching live sound with absolute truths always leads to trouble...

He's not approaching it in absolute truths, he's applying well-known facts about acoustics in an attempt to tighten up their sound and get his guitarist's amp level to be more manageable.

Sound really isn't a weird animal - it follows all of our physical laws regarding waves and acoustics. The issue comes from trying to account for EVERYTHING, and it's just not feasible.

negative theory · #20 07-01-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathFromBelow

It is on TB...

Also,if you need to wear earplugs,you're doing something wrong.