Headphone amp/mixer help

OriginalCrash · #1 10-13-2008, 06:55 PM

So here's the deal... Our church just started a contemporary worship service, and I'm playing bass for it. I recently got a Markbass LMII, but have no cab for it yet. So right now I'm running bass->amp->sound board via the direct out on the amp, and I'm running through the stage monitors (along with the vocals, acoustic guitar, and electronic drums). As you might can imagine, I'm just too far down in the mix to hear myself well enough for some good playing dynamics... I'm digging in just to be able to hear myself play. So I got the idea of using a small, two-channel headphone amp where I can mix the signal from my amp with the line level monitor signal and be able to control their individual volumes for a reasonable, cheaper IEM system. Any suggestions on going that route? Specifically, which ones to look at? So far I've found the ART My Monitor, Samson S-Monitor, and Raven Labs PHA-1... Thanks for your help!

Brian

OriginalCrash · #2 10-14-2008, 12:32 PM

Anyone?

Brian

On The DL · #3 10-14-2008, 07:30 PM

yep, I've run into that problem a number of times. We now use Avioms with in-ears which is a really nice set-up, but understandably expensive.

I have used a couple of different heaphone amps including the rolls ($50), presonus, and furman. The cheapest route would probably be a little rolls box and just send a monitor mix back through an aux on the board. Even though in-ears or heaphones somewhat take away from the live vibe of playing, they'll save your ears in the long run.

OriginalCrash · #4 10-14-2008, 08:48 PM

Yeah, I hadn't seen it before, but that Rolls box looks about like the first two I mentioned. The Raven Labs has the eq on it, but I don't know how necessary it'd be (and it's a LOT more expensive than the others). The main thing I was wondering about between it and the others is the quality of the headphone signal... Are they all gonna be pretty comparable, or would the Raven Labs be worth the cost?

Brian

On The DL · #5 10-14-2008, 10:03 PM

I've never used the Raven Labs, but my experience with the rolls is at least comparible to any sound that comes out of a decent wedge monitor, barring you have decent headphones or in-ears. I think it mostly depends on the quality of sounds going into the board as to what is coming back to the monitors (run pre-fader), but now that I almost exclusively use only in-ears, it's hard to go back to open monitors for a number of reasons- sharing mixes, sheer stage volume, and long term hearing detriment etc (I play about 20hrs/week).

Some of those reasonably priced headphone amps have 4 outputs allowing several headphone splits

F-Clef-Jef · #6 10-15-2008, 12:12 PM

I've used a similar setup using my cheap little Behringer 4 channel mixer (UB402?? about $50), plugging my in-ears into the headphone out. Worked quite well, although some people have had issues with the Behringer gear, it worked okay for me.

OriginalCrash · #7 10-25-2008, 12:56 PM

So an update... the other night I tried going from my tuner out (tried the effects send first but the signal was too hot from it... not too hot for the amp but too hot for an acceptable stage volume, as the only knob on the LMII that affects it is the gain knob... which also affects the signal I send to the board) to the power amp in on a Fender Rumble 100... basically just using it as a stage monitor from my amp. However as I suspected (I've played on this stage before, and the room notoriously amplifies the bass sound by the time it gets to the audience), in order for my "monitor" to be quiet enough not to overpower what they have me coming through the sound system at, I couldn't really hear myself through it... not enough to make it worth it. So I'm definitely gonna have to go the "cheap IEM" route. One more question... I was talking to one of the sound guys about being able to get a line level monitor feed (to plug into whichever unit I wind up going with)... The quickest and easiest thing he came up with was taking one of the powered monitor feeds (after the amp... ready to run into the speaker) and running into a direct box (with I believe, up to -40 dB in attenuation) to get my feed... Would that be comparable to a line level signal? Or do I need to press really needing a line level feed before it hits the amps? Thanks again for your help, guys.

Brian

GregShadoan · #8 10-25-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalCrash

So an update... the other night I tried going from my tuner out (tried the effects send first but the signal was too hot from it... not too hot for the amp but too hot for an acceptable stage volume, as the only knob on the LMII that affects it is the gain knob... which also affects the signal I send to the board) to the power amp in on a Fender Rumble 100... basically just using it as a stage monitor from my amp. However as I suspected (I've played on this stage before, and the room notoriously amplifies the bass sound by the time it gets to the audience), in order for my "monitor" to be quiet enough not to overpower what they have me coming through the sound system at, I couldn't really hear myself through it... not enough to make it worth it. So I'm definitely gonna have to go the "cheap IEM" route. One more question... I was talking to one of the sound guys about being able to get a line level monitor feed (to plug into whichever unit I wind up going with)... The quickest and easiest thing he came up with was taking one of the powered monitor feeds (after the amp... ready to run into the speaker) and running into a direct box (with I believe, up to -40 dB in attenuation) to get my feed... Would that be comparable to a line level signal? Or do I need to press really needing a line level feed before it hits the amps? Thanks again for your help, guys.

Brian

You really should be using an aux buss out of the mixing console. Pre-eq, pre-fader, for a complete mix in your IEM's.
If the sound guy doesn't understand these terms, I would look for a new one. Maybe give him a copy of the Yamaha sound re-enforcement book. Its a good read.

**Stumbo** · #9 10-25-2008, 01:30 PM

How about getting a used cab for your amp?
Here's an amppeg 1x15 your area for $150:http://atlanta.craigslist.org/msg/886096491.html
or Peavey 4x10 and 1x15 for $250:http://atlanta.craigslist.org/msg/886922878.html

Loel · #10 10-25-2008, 02:38 PM

Take a look at this

Earwig, easounddesign.com

may suite your needs..

OriginalCrash · #11 10-25-2008, 02:53 PM

Well the only issue with the auxiliary feed is that all the wiring is already done at our church... so if there isn't already a feed running from the sound booth (in the back) to the stage then there's not really a way to get it. And I know that's certainly best (and what I want, if I can get it), but I'm just wondering if an attenuated speaker level signal can work... or if it'll fry a headphone amp/mixer. As for a cab, I'd have the same problem I do using the amp onstage I do now... by the time it's loud enough on stage for me to hear it well enough over everyone (and we're not that loud, for that matter... about 90 dB on stage... it is a church service, after all

), it's too loud out in the rest of the sanctuary...

Brian

OriginalCrash · #12 10-25-2008, 02:55 PM

And the Earwig looks to me to just be a headphone amp for my bass... which I don't want. I want something where I can still get the monitor feed that everyone else is getting but then mix in my own signal as loud or soft as I want it...

Brian

GregShadoan · #13 10-25-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalCrash

Well the only issue with the auxiliary feed is that all the wiring is already done at our church... so if there isn't already a feed running from the sound booth (in the back) to the stage then there's not really a way to get it. And I know that's certainly best (and what I want, if I can get it), but I'm just wondering if an attenuated speaker level signal can work... or if it'll fry a headphone amp/mixer. As for a cab, I'd have the same problem I do using the amp onstage I do now... by the time it's loud enough on stage for me to hear it well enough over everyone (and we're not that loud, for that matter... about 90 dB on stage... it is a church service, after all

), it's too loud out in the rest of the sanctuary...

Brian

While I personally dont really recommend the cheaper IEM units, like the shure psm200, or the like, you could very eaisly STILL use an aux send from FOH, as it is a wireless tranmitter that could probably very eaisly be run from FOH at reasonable distances, no wiring need. Just keep fresh batteries in your receiver.
It really does not need to live on stage. Certainly worth a try.
THere are also antannea boosters availble.
That way you could get a real IEM mix. I have run transmitters from FOH quite often with good results.

OriginalCrash · #14 10-25-2008, 08:42 PM

What kind of cost would we be talking about with that? I already have a good pair of headphones (Bang & Olufsen A8's... not actual in-ears but solid quality!), so looking at the Rolls, Samson, and ART amps carried the advantage of a ≈$50 price tag...

Brian

GregShadoan · #15 10-25-2008, 09:42 PM

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-P2...09-i1126535.gc
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/live_sou..._monitors.html

Nothing in the $50 range. As to your exact situation, using signal to a powered monitor would work, but not a amp output to a non-powered monitor. Sorry about no wire available. That would solve allot of your problems if there were some extra signal path back to the stage. Short sighted install :-(

OriginalCrash · #16 10-25-2008, 11:16 PM

Well, they're not powered monitors, so it'd definitely be a full on, amplified speaker level signal... I just didn't know if attenuation would be able to bring it down to a usable level (on a side note, I once accidentally plugged my tuner into the speaker out, not the tuner out, of my LMII... luckily it didn't hurt a thing) or if it would still be too hot... But thanks for your help so far, guys!

Brian

Ben-Jammin · #17 10-29-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalCrash

Well the only issue with the auxiliary feed is that all the wiring is already done at our church... so if there isn't already a feed running from the sound booth (in the back) to the stage then there's not really a way to get it. And I know that's certainly best (and what I want, if I can get it), but I'm just wondering if an attenuated speaker level signal can work... or if it'll fry a headphone amp/mixer. As for a cab, I'd have the same problem I do using the amp onstage I do now... by the time it's loud enough on stage for me to hear it well enough over everyone (and we're not that loud, for that matter... about 90 dB on stage... it is a church service, after all

), it's too loud out in the rest of the sanctuary...

Brian

You can use the existing wiring in the church for aux send(assuming your snake has a spare).
Run out of your aux of the console and run backwards through a channel on the snake. Plug in the input on the stage to your headphone amplifier and you're good to go. Just requires making/buying a couple cables to run backwards.

As for headphone amps, for a super cheap route, you can get a Behringer AMP800. Next step up would be a Presonus HP4. It probobly doesn't matter if you get something super-cheap as you're not using real In-ear buds and so probobly can't tell the difference in sound quality -- especially when the band is playing. I would just have more faith in the Presonus lasting longer, as well, Behringer lacks *cough* build quality.

Ben

OriginalCrash · #18 10-29-2008, 01:09 PM

Yeah, I do know that if there's an open spot on the snake, I could get a line level monitor signal... I guess I'm just planning more for worst case scenario (if there's no open spot for me to get one). We practice on Thursdays and play on Sundays, but I'm working both days this cycle... So next week at practice I plan on looking at it with the sound guys to see what I can get... Just wondering if the attenuated speaker level signal would work if that's all I can do or if that would be a disaster not worth messing with (either the signal still being too hot for the headphone amp or even if using it that way would screw with the impedance and overall load on the monitor amp)...?

Brian

GregShadoan · #19 10-29-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalCrash

Yeah, I do know that if there's an open spot on the snake, I could get a line level monitor signal... I guess I'm just planning more for worst case scenario (if there's no open spot for me to get one). We practice on Thursdays and play on Sundays, but I'm working both days this cycle... So next week at practice I plan on looking at it with the sound guys to see what I can get... Just wondering if the attenuated speaker level signal would work if that's all I can do or if that would be a disaster not worth messing with (either the signal still being too hot for the headphone amp or even if using it that way would screw with the impedance and overall load on the monitor amp)...?

Brian

Where is the amp powering the monitor. Use a signal off the amp input.