help with live sound

[LPStephens]

Sorry if I sound completely ignorant regarding live sound, but I'm looking for some guidance. This is my first band and it's really taken off more than I ever imagined.

I play bass in a 5 piece classic rock band. We play small bars and clubs so our setup has been nothing more than a PA for vocals and keyboards with the rest just going through instrument amps. We have a main PA amp and another amp for the monitors plus mixer. Our system is some old (and heavy) stuff and some modern equipment may help us through our growing pains. None of the places we play have a house system (so far).

The problem that has developed is our following has grown tremendously (good thing!) and we've had to "crank up" to get our sound out there resulting in it being too loud on stage (or floor) with the two guitar amps and bass amp in order to have enough volume for the crowd. We need to get the sound in front of us where it belongs and have good balanced monitoring. No brainer, but I don't know the best way to get there from here. The places we've been playing have a really small area for the band and we're just feet (or inches) away from the amps with the sound blowing up our pant legs. People attending have said they love that we don't play too loud, but it's been hard on us volume wise and yes we use ear protection, but that has added some balance issues too.

I'm thinking we need to start micing the bass and guitars through the PA and just use the amps as monitors, but I really don't know what would be the best solution for us. I'm also wondering about things such as powered speakers etc. to help reduce the amount gear we need to haul. I feel more like a mover than a musician lol. I'm not opposed to spending some cash to get things right. On the other hand, I don't want to go spend money on things we don't need or would be overkill for what we're doing. Any research I've done gets into really technical stuff and I need more of a live sound for dummies approach at this point.

Any guidance, recommendations or comments greatly appreciated.

[Jimbob Jones]

Firstly, try tilting your amps back a bit, so the cones point up at an angle; there's a chance that this will solve all your problems for free.

The other solution is to buy a new PA system. Unfortunately this gets rather expensive rather quickly, especially if you (or another band member) gets 'the bug'; it's just one of those worlds where you can just keep pouring more and more money into what seems like a black hole.

[IvanMike]

you don't want to put guitars (and especially bass!) through the PA unless it can handle it and there is a reason to. You can have tons of control over the volume and tone in the FOH using a PA for everything, but this takes some bucks to get a good one, needs a competent soundman, and requires a great deal of maturity and restraint on the part of the musicians as you must keep the volume of your amps way down.

Take the compliment that you don't play too loud to heart. Way too many bands play too loud and treat a gig as if its their own personal entertainment rather than a situation where you are providing entertainment for others (at a volume that they find reasonable).

Remember, at a show it's not about you, it's about the audience (and making the venue owner happy). If you drive them all away playing so loud in an attempt to be "rock star wannabes" you will have plenty of free time on gig nights (i.e., you won't get hired much).

[LPStephens]

We do play to the room we're in and very aware of not being too loud. It's our priority, but some gigs have gotten to the point where we need to get above the level of the crowd and so our volume is higher than usual. Just thought there might be a way to get out of the "front line" and get the music in front of us, but doesn't sound like there's an easy solution.

I've seen other bands have standing room only when they start and drive everyone out the door. We play to draw people in and that's why we have gigs and owners want us back.

[uhdinator]

There is a reason to mic your guitars, bass, drums thru a PA if you have a sound man.
He can hear what the audience hears and what needs balanced out, you can't tell that from stage and he can't fix it unless it is going thru a mixer where he/she can have control of it from the audiences perspective..........you don't have to run the volume on 11.

Get some $39 amp stands that get your amps off the floor and angle up at you (you don't have ears on your ankles I hope?) and place your amps side stage pointed across stage so the sweet spot is where you are all standing on stage. You can hear each other better at a lower volume and it keeps your overall PA sounding more defined as your amps are not spilling into vocal mics that are usually not Eq'd optimally for your guitars.

The drummers volume will dictate your stage volume as you have to balance your guitar volumes with how hard the drummer plays. (Loud drummers are hard to mix in small clubs as the PA has be loud enough to overcome the drummer to get and even mix)

Everything will sound cleaner more defined and up front all coming from one source and you will save your hearing. Good powered cabs can handle everything mic'd at reasonable volumes as long as everything is set correctly. you don't have to run the instrument channels really loud as you have the stage volume of your instrument amps filling in too. Just enough to get them more up front and balanced with vocals.

Here's some things to consider:

Powered speakers cost more but are easier to set up and less gear to drag around. You also save money over passive systems as you don't need amps, cases, and speaker cables.

example: JBL PRX612m 1000w powered cabs $1400 a pair (marketing hype is 1000w each but average power is prob more like 500w)

JBL MRX 515 $1250 a pair passive speakers
Power amp min 400w to 800w per ch $600+
Amp case $200
Speaker cables $100 pair TOTAL $2150

You will prob have to invest in some $99 shure sm57s or Audix i5 mics and a Direct box for a bass, and a Kick mic. (most direct outs on bass amps can cause hum and its better to have a direct feed thru a direct box to the mixer and to the bass players amp)

do some gigs save up and add the subs on later.

powered is less setup time, less gear to carry and all you need is a dozen mic cables. You can't set it up wrong except for proper gain staging your mixer.