How Do FOH Engineers Feel About Effects Through the PA

warwick.hoy · #1 06-13-2009, 04:57 PM

So This has come up in a few replies in the FX subforum and I thought I'd come over and see what the consensus is on FX through the FOH and where to DI from.

I would assume that a lot of it boils down to communicating with your soundman making him aware of what effects you are using, and exercising control and discipline with your effects.

Not being a soundman I still want my effects to come through the FOH cause I don't think stage volume would be enough. What are the issues and where would the compromises be? How do you reassure a gun shy soundman that you won't kill his PA.

For my purposes; in addition to a clean tone, I'm using Fuzz, Octaver and Overdrive,...and in the future Synth, but try to imagine every and any scenario.

Sorry if this has been beaten to death, but I haven't seen any recent discussion and did not do a search.

idoru · #2 06-13-2009, 05:12 PM

I've never had any soundguys take issue with it; keep in mind that we had a least a minute to balance levels of clean vs effected, and I always used a blended signal. They'd much rather have a lower stage volume than have you crank your bass amp so the crowd can hear your fx.

c-

JimmyM · #3 06-13-2009, 05:17 PM

When I first started using effects again, I freaked out many a soundman trying to figure out why I'm getting short bursts of distortion in my signal. So now I warn every soundman that I have a distortion pedal and a couple octavers and I'm not afraid to use them. That's not such an issue for soundmen mixing modern rock styles because they actually expect effects, but for those used to bassists who plug straight in, such as me playing oldies

, it can be a shock to the system.

derekd · #4 06-13-2009, 06:56 PM

As a PT sound guy, frankly I don't care. IF you have your levels set to where there isn't a big bump volume wise when you kick on whatever effect you are using.

If your distortion/fuzz etc, is much louder than your regular signal, then you are going to have me riding the fader on your channel(s) all night.

JustDavid · #5 06-13-2009, 07:10 PM

Like DerekD, I don't think it should matter as long as your level is consistent/appropriate.

warwick.hoy · #6 06-13-2009, 07:17 PM

Thanks for the replies. So there are no problems to DI at the end of the chain?

link wray · #7 06-13-2009, 07:29 PM

I never DI bass with effects: you never know what kind of dynamics you'll get in the low end with octavers and in the high end fuzz will sound terrible. I will always mike bass if there will be effects.

warwick.hoy · #8 06-13-2009, 08:18 PM

Mic instead of DI,...a digital venue in town moved to mic for bass even if the bassist runs clean. I've been told that it is because most DIs introduce a lot of noise into the signal.

Should I get a mic. I hear kick drum mics are good for bass cabs.

JimmyM · #9 06-13-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

Mic instead of DI,...a digital venue in town moved to mic for bass even if the bassist runs clean. I've been told that it is because most DIs introduce a lot of noise into the signal.

Should I get a mic. I hear kick drum mics are good for bass cabs.

Some people think so. I think they're wrong, but others do it. I think it's much better to get a flat response mic like an EV RE 20 or a Heil PR 40. But I've used many different mics and had nothing but good experiences with all of them except kick mics. I don't like the scoop you get with them.

JimmyM · #10 06-13-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link wray

I never DI bass with effects: you never know what kind of dynamics you'll get in the low end with octavers and in the high end fuzz will sound terrible. I will always mike bass if there will be effects.

Will you marry me and run sound everywhere I go?

fokof · #11 06-14-2009, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Like DerekD, I don't think it should matter as long as your level is consistent/appropriate.

Like these guys......

I would personaly take both a mike and DI to have more "meat" in the low end with the DI.....

warwick.hoy · #12 06-14-2009, 02:10 AM

Thinking DI pre FX then? Mic would obviously be post FX?

kalle74 · #13 06-14-2009, 09:17 AM

I think I´ve tried all of the variables. Mostly DI (pre-efx for clean low end) + mic for "grit" and mid-highs.

Having your levels in check helps alot. So does having your sound together, i.e. no serious high-end buzz after kicking in the distortion(sometimes hard to distinguish with 15" cabs since they don´t reproduce high end well).

SteveC · #14 06-14-2009, 09:22 AM

If you are going to use effects, I think you should/would want your overall signal to be fairly even and consistent. There are of course times where you want a volume boost - solo's whatever - but for the most part, whats coming out - DI or mic - should be consistent. That's just being a professional in my mind.

two fingers · #15 06-14-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derekd

As a PT sound guy, frankly I don't care. IF you have your levels set to where there isn't a big bump volume wise when you kick on whatever effect you are using.

If your distortion/fuzz etc, is much louder than your regular signal, then you are going to have me riding the fader on your channel(s) all night.

+1
If it's part of your music, go for it. Just be sure to "normalize" your volume levels. As far as how to do it, no problem. I would guess that every DI has two outputs (at least). One 1/4" and one XLR. Run your effects just as you would always do it. Plug the end of your chain into the DI. Send the XLR out to the board and the 1/4" out to your rig. The biggest problem I run into with this is towards the end of the show (when everybody gets really excited) the volume levels go up. If this happens to your band, and you need more stage volume, be sure to ONLY TURN KNOBS ON YOUR RIG. STAY WAY from the level knobs on your effects. That way the sound guy can maintain the same mix (roughly) out front. Cheers.

coreyfyfe · #16 06-14-2009, 10:10 AM

I typically bring a DI to my gigs because I run a lot of effects, so I want something that's going to fall post-EQ on my head. I've found that placing the DI after my board tends to pick up a lot more high end that I don't want, especially from the overdrive/octaver combinations that I use. It's the same reason I like tweeter-less cabs. My preference is to always have a mic on the cab, but I've had a few sound guys who were a little less than happy to have to mic (mostly because they were running all the other bass amps DI), so until I get my own mic I will continue to bring my countryman with me where ever I go.

As far as a kick drum mic on a bass cab, IMO/E it's a horrible idea, but some people really like it. I've done recordings with a D112 and a few others and never liked the results. I'd much rather let my cab shape the output and have a full range mic picking up what's coming out.

WalterBush · #17 06-14-2009, 10:27 AM

I don't mic my cabs, and I rarely mic other people's bass cabs when running sound. Just a personal preference; most people's bass rigs don't sound as good as their bass through a DI, IMO, my own included.

Any decent system has the ability to put a limiter on your channel. Go DI after your effects; I recently put my pedalboard together in such a way that a soundman doesn't even have a say in the matter. Try to keep the effects levels balanced, that's just good technique and keeps your bass from getting squashed in the mix, but even the cheapest rental PA on the planet should include limiting of some sort, there's no reason for a soundman to fear damage to his system from an overdrive-and-octave-slinging bassist.

One way or another, mic or DI, your effects should go through FOH.

link wray · #18 06-14-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WalterBush

there's no reason for a soundman to fear damage to his system from an overdrive-and-octave-slinging bassist.

I do not agree: the problem is that most basscabs roll off below 60 hertz. A lot of players compensate for this by boosting in this area. And that sounds horrible trough decent subs that will reproduce that area. Octave-down effects only add to the problem. Yes, you can EQ it out of the FOH-signal again but with a mic this is not neccesary.

Mads · #19 06-14-2009, 05:07 PM

The bands that I tour with have all bass FX before DI.
My feel as a bassplayer and as a soundtech is that if your sound (with FX) is good before the DI why not bring it to FOH...

Just my two cents.

(I do however make a living as a sound tech if that weights anything to any of you)

jaywa · #20 06-14-2009, 05:15 PM

The sound guys I've worked with don't much like dealing with a sub-octaver. That's the only effect I use, and only then on a couple of songs. And if they make too much of a stink about it I just back off since the songs don't suffer that much without it anyway. I'd rather lose the effect and still get love in the mix than P**s the sound guy off and get pulled out of the house all night.