How does the bass get routed through the sound?

joeturbodiesel@ · #1 03-12-2011, 12:36 PM

I have been doing small gigs here lately and have just relied on my rig to put enough volume to get the job done. We are planning on doing some slightly bigger venues and I do not know how the bass gets connected from the xlr out on my amp to where ever it is supposed to go. The guy I am playing with now wont let me hook up to his 600 watt peavy system because he is afraid that i will damage his speakers (yamaha with 10"s) since the horn is part of the speaker. I went to see another band last weekend that a friend of mine plays in and there sound guy said the line out from the bass head goes to a crown amp and cerwin vega subs on the bottom direct. Is that the way everybody hooks that up or can you isolate it at the mixing board? Just wondering so I can buy my whole bottom end (amp, subs)for bigger gigs. Sorry about the ignorant question, I just don't have any experience doing this.

steveksux · #2 03-12-2011, 12:58 PM

Generally the subs are connected to the PA, and the xlr out of your onboard DI goes to a mic channel on the board, with the attenuator turned much farther down than the vocals, since mics put out mic level and your amp is potentially putting out a line level signal, MUCH hotter than a mic.

If their PA won't handle bass (just a couple of 10's and a horn up on poles, with no sub) you could potentially get extra bass speakers and put the pa speaker on top if it. You want the extra volume to be in the audience, not on stage where you'll wash out the monitors and singers won't be able to hear themselves. Turning up the monitors gets you into feedback territory.

Kind of non-standard, but if you'd rather invest in big bass cabs for larger gigs, it makes more sense than having a monster rig on stage as your only sound source while everyone else is in the mains/monitors. The whole idea behind micing everything is so you can turn down stage volume and hear vocals clearer, and everything else too. With you not being in the PA, you'll be drowning them out on stage, by necessity, to get good FOH mix. I think you mic all the instruments or none of them. Can't get good mix on stage with some people not getting PA support.

Randy

joeturbodiesel@ · #3 03-12-2011, 01:12 PM

So would I go from my amps DI out to an amp(like crown or QSC) and then to some subs without having to go through the board at all?

walker rosewood · #4 03-12-2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

sound guy said the line out from the bass head goes to a crown amp and cerwin vega subs on the bottom direct.

This guy either misspoke or doesn't know what he's doing. Probably just misspoke. Subwoofers only include frequencies up to 60hz, or 80hz or 120hz depending on the model. A bass guitar has harmonic content way above that, up to 10khz or more.

Sound systems with subs have a device called a [frequency] cross-over. It basically splits the signal and sends the lows to the subs and the mids/highs to the tops.

Steveksux's first paragraph on routing there is correct, add that the FOH set up should take care of sending the correct freqs to the correct speakers.

steveksux · #5 03-12-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeturbodiesel@

So would I go from my amps DI out to an amp(like crown or QSC) and then to some subs without having to go through the board at all?

You could, but I would go with full range bass cabs in that case, not subs.

Normally it would be better to hook the power amp/subs to the board so the bass drum can take advantage of them, as well as you. But if they aren't micing drums, the only thing going through the subs would be bass anyway.

Using subs fed from your bass will probably just muddy up your sound, they won't produce any of the mids/highs that give you definition and help you cut through the mix. Subs are made to complement otherwise full range speakers that can't handle the low end.

I run 2 cabs, there are some gigs where I have put one cab on the floor in front of the stage to act sort of like a sub, with one cab on stage to keep the stage volume down. But that's an extra cab, running full range, not just throwing a sub driven by my preamp out there. Thats' not optimal.

Randy

gnjpowell · #6 03-12-2011, 01:24 PM

Yah kindah haftah run it through the board, via DI or mic'd or both, so your live mix guy can get a good and balanced sound for your many fanatical followers.

joeturbodiesel@ · #7 03-12-2011, 01:42 PM

Well, I am going to have to give you more info so you will better understand my situation. We, and when I say we, I mean the singer/acoustic guitar player and me,bass player, are the the whole ensemble with an occasional drumer. There is no mixing board away from stage with a sound guy listening to how it sounds. It is a little peavy xr 8300 sitting behind the singer that he reaches behind and tweaks when he doesnt like what he hears. Most of our gigs are restaurants, small clubs or garages. We played a bar that had a small dance floor the other day and I used my hartke to power the bottom part of some peavy speakers and used my carvin to power my cabs for me. The guy I play with is paranoid and on a super tight budget and depends on playing for the whole of his income so even though the songs sound better with bass he is not willing to risk his PA to sound better. I don't blame him but I am willing to invest in what ever I need to to get it set up right or at least have a foundation or beginings for my own PA one day. I hope this makes more sense, thanks for yalls insight and experience.

MuzikMan · #8 03-13-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote: The guy I am playing with now wont let me hook up to his 600 watt peavy system he is afraid that i will damage his speakers (yamaha with 10"s) since the horn is part of the speaker

The horn will not be damaged by the bass guitar any more than any other instrument. There is no science to back up that claim. Hopefully you can find a way to straighten him out on that one!

To make your rig more bass guitar ready you will need to purchase a crossover, subwoofer, and power amp. If you do some smart shopping you can find a powered subwoofer with the crossover built in.

Connections:
XLR from your amp --> XLR in on a channel of the xr8300.
Main from xr8300 --> crossover.
Crossover (low) --> power amp channel --> subwoofer.
Crossover (high) --> power amp 1 in of xr8300.

The connections would be a little different if you purchase a powered sub with crossover built in.

Zooberwerx · #9 03-13-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeturbodiesel@

but I am willing to invest in what ever I need to to get it set up right or at least have a foundation or beginings for my own PA one day. I hope this makes more sense, thanks for yalls insight and experience.

Makes perfect sense to me provided this band project promises some longevity or you plan to pursue other opportunites should this one falter. IOW, been there, done that. When I joined the band 5 years ago, their PA was pretty much:

*Behringer 16 channel board
*Single QSC RMX 1450 powering (2) Yamaha 3-ways
*Cast-off Peavey PA head powering a handful of well-worn Fender PA speakers as monitors (still used to this day).

It was by sheer coincidence & luck that these guys were able to coax any sound from the system whatsoever. Aside from the sliders, they didn't have a clue as to what purpose the various buttons and knobs served...I kid you not. I pretty much took over the reins as (1) I had the money and (2) I was willing to read the manuals. Here's the chronology:

*Added two Carvin 1503's - $500 (replaced the Yamahas)
*dbx Xover, RMX 2450 amp, two Yorkie subs - $750 (began bi-amping)
*Soundcraft 16 channel mixer - $425 (replaced the Behringer)
*dbx DriveRack - $425 (replaced the dbx Xover)
*ART graphic EQ for "rescue" - free!
*QSC RMX 1450 for monitors - $200
*Cables, etc. - easily $400 over the years.
*Aphex, BBE processors - $100

Whenever possible, we recycled that which remained viable (wear it out, use it up, make it do) including the monitor enclosures, mics, rack cases, speaker & mic cables, etc. I'm sure I've overlooked certain expenses but I think it's safe to say we came in under $4k for a decent sounding PA which is more than adequate for our purposes. Sounds a bit convoluted but this configuration allows me to swap, re-assign, upgrade, etc. individual components as necessary without deep-6'ing the entire rig. And now on to your plight...

Perhaps I'm being presumptuous but it sounds as if your vocalist / leader may be resistant to the prospect of DI'ing your bass irrespective of whatever addt'l slaved components (xover, amps, speaker enclosures) you throw into the mix.

Riis

Zooberwerx · #10 03-13-2011, 01:46 PM

Here's the manual:

http://www.peavey.com/assets/literat...00513220_7.pdf

From the looks of things, you have a couple of options. The self-contained Peavey 8300 is a nice little powered PA which is more than suitable for the espresso crowd at Starbucks or other intimate (read: cramped) venues provided you're satisified with the bass support via backline rig. IMO, there's no pressing need to be in the house mix in these situations. However, med / large venues will require a different approach and re-assignment of the Peavey's features. Again, I'm engineering this under the impression you leader does not want you in the Peavey mains in any way, shape, or form which poses some limitations. It will require the addition of components but you acknowledged that fact from the git-go. I'm pursuing this with a "minimalist" philosophy but feel free to embellish as budget allows.

*Flip the Peavey mains are their sides and use as monitors via the 8300's monitor power amp (#2). I think you can even run the monitor preamp out into power amps #1's input if a second monitor power source is required.

*Run a line from the 8300's main output to a Xover of choice (you can find used Behringers for ~$50) with a freq. of 100 hz.

*Run high and low signals to either a 2400+ watt (or two lesser powered, say 1400's) power amps. Note: individual power amps run in bridged mono powering daisy-chained 8 ohm enclosures works nicely provided the amps are rated bridged mono @ 4 ohms.

*Run one amp (or channel) to two enclosures on tripods and the second to one or two sub enclosures.

Here's the downside: the hardware will run you $1300-1500...YMMV depending on the availability of used gear in your area. The upside: you now have a gig-worthy rig which can be upgraded in the future.

Riis

mowburger · #11 03-13-2011, 03:39 PM

a nice 15" powered full range enclosure sounds like a perfect fit, These stand alone units are so versitile, main/mon usage, good sound, some have a bit of eq built in, not too pricey400-500$ new.

+1 for using those ten's as monitors, a sub might be overkill in a coffe shop, a nice pwrd 15 as a main with vox and a touch of bass, the 10's as mons so the vox are clear on stage, your bass amp filling out the sound as support/like a sub would do.

MuzikMan · #12 03-13-2011, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowburger

a nice 15" powered full range enclosure sounds like a perfect fit, These stand alone units are so versitile, main/mon usage, good sound, some have a bit of eq built in, not too pricey400-500$ new.

+1 for using those ten's as monitors, a sub might be overkill in a coffe shop, a nice pwrd 15 as a main with vox and a touch of bass, the 10's as mons so the vox are clear on stage, your bass amp filling out the sound as support/like a sub would do.

After re-reading this thread I think you are probably right that subs are overkill. I also agree that a good set of powered 15 speakers would work well. The whole front end would be covered and the guitar player gets to to keep the bass guitar out of his Yamaha cabs by using them as vocal monitors.

walterw · #13 03-13-2011, 10:50 PM

i would skip all this "homebrew bass PA" nonsense. if you need a bigger bass rig, one that would compete with a loud drummer, get that. 4x10 cabs are good, one for medium volume, two for loud.

if you're playing bigger places, what's the other guy going to use? his same mixer head and 10" cabs?

if you guys get a big enough PA for him to actually cover these "bigger places", you'd be able to send a little bass into it with no problem. it would be more ideal anyway, as using more onstage rig with an acoustic player will not make him happy. (with an acoustic guitar, a little electric bass goes a long way anyway.)

a powered sub can be a simple way to beef up a little system. many can actually get their signal from the speaker runs, so there's no extra signal routing involved.

it's nice to run one off a line-level out, though, especially one that's not affected by the graphic EQ on the mixer head. that way, you could take the lows out of the little top boxes with the graphic EQ, making them sound better at the mids and highs, and just have the lows in the sub.

you could run a little bass into that kind of setup with no trouble. (tell your guy to turn the treble down on your bass channel to keep it out of the horns if he's still nervous about it.)

joeturbodiesel@ · #14 03-15-2011, 12:27 AM

Thanks for all the replies. @ walterw. I had that exact conversation with him yesterday. I told him i could go through one of his channels and just keep the volume low enough to not push anything in his system too hard and cut the treble setting down all together. At least a little bass would come out through the mix which is better than nothing. He seemed to agree. The music shop I do business with suggested a line out from my hartke to a small passive mixer or preamp with a gain to powered subs or an amp and subs which is what I would prefer encase I decided to start building a complete PA in the future . I could use the amp in any capacity vs. the powered subs. Looked for a long time last night all over the web and really couldn't find a rack mounted preamp or mixer that has xlr in and xlr out with a gain to go from my hartke with no line out gain or volume control xlr to the amp xlr input .
The reason I want to go with a sub set up is for the medium gigs that I want to pursue in the future. We played at a gig on saturday that would have been perfect for that setup. A medium to large size hall. We did o.k. but it could have been better. I might be making a mountain out of a molehill and throwing good money away. I just feel like when you have the beginnings of a PA or a complete PA you have the opprotunity to do things you would not have been able too otherwise. I really appreciate all the good suggestions.

walterw · #15 03-15-2011, 12:37 AM

so you're gonna cobble together PA stuff over time, and just use pieces of it as you get it?

that can work, as long as you buy stuff that's "scalable"; like the 12" tops you buy now should be able to serve as the vocal wedges when you get bigger tops later, etc.

all-in-one mixer heads are usually not so good for this.

oh, and both the hartke's effects send and its direct out should be plenty to drive any power amp or powered sub's input.

joeturbodiesel@ · #16 03-15-2011, 12:50 AM

Actually my plans are to buy what would essentially be a bottom end to his system and then later if I need or want to buy the top side to make a complete system as it were. My music shop suggested a berhinger zmx 8210 rack mixer for the gain control and a crown xls 2000 or xls 602 amp and some jbl 18" subs. I could then just set that under his system and see how that works. you can always turn it down if it starts to overpower his sound system and it will sound full and I am not blasting us on the stage with my rig. With the rack mixer I could also add a mic for the kick drum and toms to get an even mix when our drummer is with us.

joeturbodiesel@ · #17 03-15-2011, 12:55 AM

I wasnt aware that I could use the effects send as a line out.

MuzikMan · #18 03-15-2011, 04:57 AM

Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be saying that you plan to run your bass guitar through subs only. If that is true then please reconsider. There is a lot going on with bass guitar above 100hz and that setup would sound terrible. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.

MuzikMan · #19 03-15-2011, 04:59 AM

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. If you want to extend the low end range of your current system then just do what everyone else does.

To make your rig more bass guitar ready you will need to purchase a crossover, subwoofer, and power amp. If you do some smart shopping you can find a powered subwoofer with the crossover built in.

Connections:
XLR from your amp --> XLR in on a channel of the xr8300.
Main from xr8300 --> crossover.
Crossover (low) --> power amp channel --> subwoofer.
Crossover (high) --> power amp 1 in of xr8300.

The connections would be a little different if you purchase a powered sub with crossover built in.
Edit/Delete Message

Zooberwerx · #20 03-15-2011, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeturbodiesel@

Actually my plans are to buy what would essentially be a bottom end to his system and then later if I need or want to buy the top side to make a complete system as it were. My music shop suggested a berhinger zmx 8210 rack mixer for the gain control and a crown xls 2000 or xls 602 amp and some jbl 18" subs. I could then just set that under his system and see how that works. you can always turn it down if it starts to overpower his sound system and it will sound full and I am not blasting us on the stage with my rig. With the rack mixer I could also add a mic for the kick drum and toms to get an even mix when our drummer is with us.

In this case, you've essentially built a PA rig (minus the mains) which will run circles around the Peavey 8300.

Riis